Operation Citadel

[John O'Reilly]

Almost finished this one as the Germans and what an experience! Pz IVs (and indeed IIIs) finally deserving of the title "armoured". Things actually bounce off 'em and not just MGs from the front! The penetration details are superb, I have lost only 2 tanks by turn 35 but some of my Pz IIIs must look like swiss cheese by now!

*spoiler alert*

When first I looked at this one, in CMBO mode I thought it was going to be nigh on impossible. I'm too used to seeing such tanks smoked by AT guns when forced to attack over such ground. I set my IVs up on the central ridge immediately in advance of the starting perimeter as an overwatch group while moving 5 IIIs up each flank. It was superb to see shells missing my IIIs as they advanced, finally scoring hits and still the gun unidentified (extreme FOW).

Of course the range was the principle factor here and eventually the guns would show up to be pulverised my massed fire. At one point I had a "battleline" of 10 tanks along a ridge which opened up on one AT gun. It was spectacular to say the least to watch this "broadside" with all the new fire and smoke jobbies.

When the first KV1 reared it's head I had 12 tanks popping away at it. I got one partial penetration I think before it was immobilised. Next turn the hammering continued since I wanted to see if they would bail as I had read once happened. They did!!!!

The second KV I advanced about the same number of tanks at. It was hiding on a reverse slope. As my boys moved forward it too advanced. I have never seen anything like it in CM before. It advanced into a wall of my armour and started to move along the length of it at point blank, shells ricocheting off all over the place. Finally a IV parked one up it's jacksey and that was the end of that. Going back now to see what is in store for the last 10 turns.

Me a very happy camper,

John

[Denizen]

Luckily for you it was a KV-1S, the weakling of the KV family!

[dizee]

yep...i just played that too, and i was pretty amazed by the number of the various hit/damage msgs.

*spoiler*

as that first kv popped up with his turret over the ridge, my armor opened up on em and i got all sorts of hit msges...eeek was that impressive.the downside was that his first try made its way right trough the front turret of one of my pIV`s. i noticed a strange clang sound and a scream from inside the striken tank, and what happened?nothing.the tank didnt brewed up or saiin, but none of the crew bailed out.must have been a grim sight inside :/

eeevil new details.....

[Denizen]

Has anyone else noticed how much this scenario favors the germans? Try playing as the russians and you be lucky to get anything better than total defeat

[KNac]

Note that the scenarios in the demo are made to give an impression of some of the new features that CMBB.

Try to play as German in the other scenario, it´s quite difficult too, playing against a decent human you will get a total lose for sure (PAK36 suck against those 6 T-34s), I managed to get a draw against the computer however.

To sum up, the scenarios do not try to be even, just give you an impression of how the full game will be with the new features.

Just my opinion.

[Stormin Norman]

"Has anyone else noticed how much this scenario favors the germans?"

I think the default Soviet setup is bad. You should be trying for flank shots at close range from 2 or more directions *and* using covered arcs to make it happen. [that is the key, IMHO, of this scenario]

use EFOW

This scenario wouldn't ever work with CMBO

Still it is very difficult I had 1 gun and 2 shocked tanks left when the last panzer bailed. Against a human I would have been very much worse. But knowing how some of the new mechanics work now I think I could do a bit better.

[vbfg]

Originally posted by Denizen:

Has anyone else noticed how much this scenario favors the germans? Try playing as the russians and you be lucky to get anything better than total defeat

Spoilers!!!!

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I've played this three times as the Soviet side today. The first time I was wiped off the map because of Trotskyite wreckers and cowards in my front line. The second time about half the German tanks made it to the second ridge. The third time I wanted to play with covered arcs rather than just gawp at the lovely graphics and, indeed, those very impressive volleys of fire from the approaching fascists. I found using batteries of guns and covered arcs to develop a fireplan gave me the best results.

Played as German once and got my ass kicked.

[karch]

I got a Major victory as the Russians playing double blind last night. If you hold off until you can ambush tanks from the side or get them from a couple angles, you can do allright.

spoiler

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

It was a real seesaw battle with me doing well to begin with until I lost both my KVs by being impetuous. Then my oponent crushed one PakFront. After flanking along the map edge with IIIs his IVs came up the middle and were sandwiched between 3 ATRs left over on the PakFront hill and another group of 4 guns. I took out 3 Mk IVs in 1 turn!! Then things swung the back to me. WIthouth the 75mm HE rounds, it was tougher to to get my guns to stay down. I killed all but 2 German tanks and had 5 47mms left. Left my troops set to the default setup. He moved way left of my Russian tank hunting teams. Has anyone had any luck with them? They never cought up to the action for me.

[Captain Wacky]

**SPOILER**

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

I earned a Major Victory by laying a nice little ambush. I placed 2 batterys of AT guns at the ends of the big valley that runs across the Soviet side. I left the 3rd in its default setup on the ridgeline closest to the Soviet side. AT rifles were stationed ahead of the ambush point to provide harassing fire.

One of my 2 man AT teams managed to knock of a PzIII, but that was it. I waited until the German panzers rolled down into the valley as one large group (It took them about 35 turns to get to this point). When everything was right, I unhid all of my AT guns and moved my KV's out of their hidden positions. The result was...unfortunate for the Germans. They were right in the middle of my "triangle of death" between the three batterys. It only took 90 seconds to knock them all out, and I only lost 1 AT gun. Not a bad price to pay for a company of tanks

[Phoenix]

SPOILER!

Questoin - What do people think about deploying the AT guns at the edges of the map? Dare I ask, is this "gamey". When I did it this way and waited till The Germans came into close range from the side I was able to wreck havoc. But I didn't feel very good about it since I felt like I'd sort of cheated because I knew there was no way they could move behind me due to the map edge.

Comments?

[zukkov]

awesome game wacky! i played with the default setup. managed to get 1 m3 with a tank hunter team before they overran them all. i wasn't sure what the spotting range would before the germans would open up on my hidden at guns, so i began firing when the closest tanks were about 350 meters away. i also moved my 2 kvs up on the ridge at the same time. i have to say watching that turn was so cool, even though i lost all 8 guns.(i just love the animation of guns firing in this game!) i did manage to kill 4 m3s and 1 m4 as compensation though, and didn't lose either kv. then the game went weird as the ai decided to go after my routing gun crews, some moving forward, some turning back, then changing direction again. meanwhile my routing crews looked like ducks in a shooting gallery, running this way and that. they were still shooting at the remains of the crews as they crested the ridge, several tanks offering their flanks and rear to my next line of guns, so i decided to open up with the guns on the next hill. this was a mistake as i only managed 1 kill for the loss of all 4 guns, but my kvs killed a couple of them. then the battle turned into a stalemate with the germans holding on to their one flag while exchanging shots with the 2 kvs. i have no idea how many hits those kvs took, but it was a bunch. but at games end, they were both still operating, though without ap rounds, while the germans had only 4 tanks left. a tactical victory for the russkies. i love it!!

[WWB]

Originally posted by KNac:

Try to play as German in the other scenario, it´s quite difficult too, playing against a decent human you will get a total lose for sure (PAK36 suck against those 6 T-34s), I managed to get a draw against the computer however.

To sum up, the scenarios do not try to be even, just give you an impression of how the full game will be with the new features.

Just my opinion.

SPOILER ALERT

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I beg to differ. I actually said almost the same thing back in the Beta days, especially about Yelina Stare. It seemed freaking impossible to win, and I had signed on to play Bil, arguably one of the most competent players about.

I ended up getting a minor victory, wihtout getting very lucky or playing a stellar game. I even lost one of the ATGs before it fired a shot. But you can win without too much difficulty.

I am not going to give away the exact method, but it comes easily if you keep these factors in mind:

1) MGs rule now. They can pin entire companies from 400m with ease, while remaining unspotted.

2) Having LOS to everything is not helpful when you lack ranged firepower. Fire discipline is key.

3) 37mm can kill T34s, just only on the front turret, sides or rear.

4) T34s when buttoned are blind, as well as having command delays upwards of 60 seconds.

WWB

[Patgod]

the pzIV's can KO your KV's from the front even at distance. they should be your main priority with the pak's.

[Jaakko]

SPOILER (as if I needed to tell you this )

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I've only played the Citadel scenario once, as the Germans, and got clobbered (major defeat).

The main problem was that my boys wouldn't spot the AT guns at first, only the KV's. So I decided to rush the buggers with my Pz III's with IV's in tow, only to have half of the little ones slaughtered by AT guns shooting at the sides.

After a while I was doing a good pounding on the AT guns, and one KV had retreated behind the ridge with turret damage. However, the remaining KV decided to do a Wittman and took out FOUR tanks in a single turn, before getting offed by a flanking Pz III.

Finally I had only three tanks left, and probably a trip to the court martial as well...

[ September 01, 2002, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Jaakko ]

[Chad Harrison]

SPOILER

*

*

*

*

*

I first played it in the German version while the english was still downloading last night. I did really good with my german tanks and was about to beat the AI at the last flag with only one tank loss, when all the sudden two ATR's open up right behind me and KO three of my Mark III's! They sure can get you from behind if you are not carefull (would of loved to see some halftracks with supporting infantry on this one). Two of my Mark IV's got into a shootout with the KV at 1600m's!!!! The germans won that shootout very quickly.

Chad

[KNac]

*SPOILERS (I don´t think so, but)*

---------------------------------

WWB thanks for the typos. I think I had some bad luck with my PAKs (also got one knocked out even before shoting a single bullet).

I have noted the MGs firepower. However I think I make a mistake, I holded them too much probably, so the russian troops get very near. Anyway I managed to quick their asses with the little artillery I had (pinning them and then launching a barrage over them is kinda nice).

I will try again the scenario...

[Grisha]

SPOILER - SPOILER - SPOILER

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

I played the Soviets against an AI German with the setup left pretty much alone, and got a minor Soviet victory with the loss of 10 45mm AT guns. The Germans lost 11 tanks outright with 1 immobilized. The use of ATRs in coordination with AT guns is actually quite effective. In fact, I would've traded my 2 KVs for 2 45mm AT guns.

[killmore]

...SPOILERS... - and lots of them

I managed to kill all german tanks in 1 turn!

I positioned ATGuns on both edges of valley (and map) (before any flags)

I consider this positioning extremely gamey!!!

I think this scenario cannot be won against reasonably good human.

I tried reverse slope defense - I killed 6 tanks and then I died...

[Barrold]

Spoilers

@

@

@

@

@

@

@

@

Oh did I make a mistake in Yelnia. Since this was a scenario I had played against Lord Dragon at Rune's first sneak peak, I gave the AI an extra 25% and +1 experience.

Ouch..ow..ooh that's going to leave a mark...owie. The 37mm AT guns barely scratched the paint of the wave of T-34s as the rolled over the way to meagre defenses.

I opened up too soon on the hordes of troops and with the tank support up close, I was chewed up something fierce.

Maybe I will try it again at normal levels.

BDH

[Herr Oberst]

SPOILER (yeah right, not by now)

Played Citadel as Germans first time. Kept reasonable distance between my armor, crested ridgelines simultaneously and traded shots with the first KV as I passed over the first ridge.

Not willing to duke it out at that range, I fast moved down into the valley, and offed the first set of ATG's with massed fire, losing two MkIII's.

Reassembled the troops, and headed to the next crest. Then it was a giant furball. Both KV's came out to play, and two Pakfronts came into action.

I detailed the MkIII's against the guns and grouped the MkIV's against a single KV... Lots of hits and penetrations but no bailing crew. Luckily the AI retargeted at the moving KV, and by the end of the turn, both KV's were down, and there were only three operational ATG's. That cost me the better portion of my armor (10 - ouch!). I then overran the next ATG line and captured 4 gun crews, and 1 Inf.

At that point I consolidated my troops and went for position, detailing a pair of MkIV's on hunting missions to rout out pesky ATR teams.

End result was a marginal Axis victory. Excellent game.