Jaakko

...but the nice people in the armoured wagons wouldn't come out! My people had even constructed a device to communicate with them, the Panzerknacker. I just have to say a big THANK YOU to the guys at BTS. You have once again single-handedly dragged me back to computer wargaming. Having been unable to order CMBO back in the day, I had forgotten about the whole thing (fickle aren't I), but one look at the new demo and I'm hooked so bad I can't stand it. I then bouhght CMBO at the local store and I'm now playing it every chance I get, waiting for CMBB. I feel alive again!

SPOILER (as if I needed to tell you this ) . . . . . . . . . . . . I've only played the Citadel scenario once, as the Germans, and got clobbered (major defeat). The main problem was that my boys wouldn't spot the AT guns at first, only the KV's. So I decided to rush the buggers with my Pz III's with IV's in tow, only to have half of the little ones slaughtered by AT guns shooting at the sides. After a while I was doing a good pounding on the AT guns, and one KV had retreated behind the ridge with turret damage. However, the remaining KV decided to do a Wittman and took out FOUR tanks in a single turn, before getting offed by a flanking Pz III. Finally I had only three tanks left, and probably a trip to the court martial as well... [ September 01, 2002, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Jaakko ]

The PPSh sounds exactly like the real thing (or at least like the Suomi SMG, the weapon it was copied from). What did you use for the sample?

As a curious tidbit, during the Winter War (March '40) one of the first two T-34s built was sent for combat trials against Finnish troops in the Karelia Peninsula, but it arrived slightly too late to take any part in the war.

Well there's an excellent book called Punaiset Panssarit (Red Armour), but it's only available in Finnish. It's the most exhaustive book on the subject I've seen, covering all aspects of the Red Army's armoured forces from 1914 to 1945.

Wow, now that's a weird thread (the Shrapnel Games one). That's the first time I see a supposed "grognard" bash a wargame because of inferior graphics! Yet the guy is still most concerned about the "academic" qualities of wargaming...a slight contradiction, wouldn't you say? It seems to me that he is one of those people whose ego is somehow dependent on his hobby, and he can't allow himself be seen liking the "wrong" kind of game (would ruin his rep, you know, gotta have respect these days ). Reminds me of a fight in historical miniature wargaming circles recently (WAB anyone?). My 0.12 FIM (complete with amateur psychology )

tss, Yes, I am indeed a Finn . Thanks for the info on Punaiset panssarit. I've had my eyes on that book for some time now, and it looks like it has become a must-buy. I guess I'll just have to eat less for a while .

Fionn, Yeah, I thought so as well. But they actually do go into the house and stay put obediently until someone shoots at them. I'd prefer they didn't go into the house at all if it is overcrowded (maybe stopped behind it?). Also, they could take cover behind the house instead of traipsing about randomly. It's only a minor problem, but it can be annoying when the house is the only cover nearby. Which reminds me, can infantry use vehicles as cover? I've tried to advance my squads behind StuGs, but I'm not sure if it helps. Also, I seem to recall you in another thread mentioning something about the physics behind armour penetration. Do you know any web pages where I could find more info on the subject? Thanks in advance . PS. Damn, I have a lot of questions today, don't I? [This message has been edited by Jaakko (edited 10-31-99).]

I've had this happen quite often: let's suppose you have a couple of infantry squads in a single-story house. You move them in, and the enemy starts shooting at them. If there is enough people in the house (eg. 2 squads and a HQ), they start taking cover *out* of the house, often straight towards the enemy. It causes a lot of casualties, and you'll have to move them back into the house every turn. So how do I make them stay in?

Hey, that's great! I can imagine it already, all those classic lines from Finnish war literature/movies... "Ei saa jäädä tuleen makaamaan! Eteenpäin! Eteenpäin!" "Hakkaa päälle pohjan poika!" and when they're ambushing someone could mutter "Ku siu varjo ossuu tuon näreen kohalle nii sillo siul tulleeki noutaja..." and when someone is mortally wounded "Tähtää alemmas, s**tanan kierosilmä!" LOL! Sorry, if you couldn't understand it, I'll translate it later, gotta go sleep now Apologies for foul language to anyone who does understand. It has to be accurate you know...

I did a bit of testing. There is a patch of scattered trees (sorry, not woods as I first thought) next to the small house by the left-hand side road. Right behind (not in) it is a small spot where the Hellcats can't see you. This is where my Tiger was. I have a save, but it's a StuG in there instead, since I hadn't saved the original game (if you still want the save Fionn, I can mail it to you). I tried moving my tank out of the cover a few times, and each time the AI reaction was different, often it did not spot it right away. Nothing weird in it after all, just the abstracted trees and human-like AI confusing me... I didn't use artillery on that double-kill incident. I tried to reproduce the conditions but I couldn't find a spot for my StuG where it wouldn't see the Hellcats on the turn they arrive. So it might be that it was the StuG that destroyed the other Hellcat. It was on the second turn after their arrival that the double-kill happened though (the Tiger missed with everything on the first), and the StuG certainly didn't shoot on the first. But these sympathetic detonations are possible in the game, right? This is just great, you know, it's only a demo, but already there are tons of different things happening that you never see in other wargames. I'd love to see the Finnish wars in CM someday though (hint, hint, nudge, nudge... ).

Fionn, Moon, First of all, thanks for the quick reply! The tree was only about 10m in front of the Hellcat, blocking ~45 degrees of los (the Tiger was at 500m, several dozen meters out of the woods it had been hiding behind). Also, my Tiger was not *in* a woods (or scattered trees), but right behind the woods "template" (and stayed the for several turns, unspotted). Perhaps the Hellcat just passed some incredibly difficult "spotting roll". As for the sympathetic detonation thing, I had no other tanks in a position to fire at the moment (only one StuG alive, shelling a house, no LOS to the Hellcats). I did watch the replay many times to find out if something else had killed the other Hellcat. They were almost touching each other, though. Oh well, I guess it's one of the many mysteries of war (maybe the loader jumped at the explosion and dropped a primed HE shell ).

Hmmm, I've had a couple of LOS problems too (in the Last Defense). A Hellcat destroyed my Tiger from behind a tree! I viewed the turn from the AI tank's perspective, and found that it was firing its gun straight at a tree. Also, it reacted to my Tiger even before it had come out of cover (I had hidden it behind a woods). The weirdest part was that my Tiger never fired back (even though it took four shots from the Hellcat). So, are the trees abstracted or something (as you can sometimes "see" right through one)? The second time I played the Last Defense, I managed to destroy two of the Hellcats with one round! It seemed that the first 'Cat's ammunition exploded, taking another with it. I really love the way nothing is the same twice in CM. I have played the First Defense four times now (with Axis, of course ), and haven't got bored with it at all. I haven't been this excited about a game since Steel Panthers!