Next Combat Mission game

[Engel]

Originally posted by energy76:

Germans attack. French put up fierce resistance but are outgunned and isolated. French surrender or flee.

It's been my impression that France had better weaponry than the Germans, but again displayed the same arrogance as before the Great War, which ended up with the French making some very big mistakes in underestimating the value of German training (and overestimating the value of the Maginot Line).

[-E]

MadMatt vs Gammara (always bet on the spinning, fire breathing flying turtle!)

[Maxx]

Originally posted by Flammenwerfer:

CM3- MadMatt vs. Mothara

I'd pay to play this one. I bet the mods would be nifty.

[Mace]

Originally posted by Engel:

It's been my impression that France had better weaponry than the Germans

The French early war AFVs weren't bad, unfortunately they were used poorly.

Mace

[laxx]

My $0.02 worth:

Korean War

----------

- Lots of countries involved (including Aussies, South Koreans, Gurkhas, Brits, Canadians etc)

- Get to play chinese/korean (or against)

- Pit Soviet Style weapons against Western Arms. (more interesting IMO than WWI weapons: maxims and single bolt rifles). Lots of Flame throwers

- lots of hills, mountains and interesting terrains.

- limited use of helicopters(may be LESS difficult to engineer into the game than Vietnam)

- Like an earlier poster, the last true war.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Afaik we'd need a new engine to do North Africa if you wanted M3A1's Lee/Grant with their hull-mounted 75mm gun.

For me I'd like to see North Africa and Italy together in the next CM. Imo neither of these theatres alone quite warrant an entire game. How about "Combat Mission: The Road to Rome"?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache:

For me I'd like to see North Africa and Italy together in the next CM.

You're going to get your wish.

Michael

[Panzer Leader]

It seems to me the real problem with "Early War" is that there is only a total of..what? 4-6 weeks of combat, maybe more if you include Norway, and I guess the Balkans.

Even thought the argument "The french were a push-over" might be sound on the STRATEGIC level, there were plenty of playable scenarios at this small scale. Problem is, there were only a FEW due to the limited time frame.

That's why I can't see "Early War" being its own game. I vote (futilely) for an Early War/Med game. It is as ambitious as CMBB but not moreso, and hey, we can't decline, can we?

[CombinedArms]

BTS seems to be staying out of this discussion so far--is there another thread where they've defined what the next CM will be? Will it be issued before or after an engine rewrite?

If the plan is for the next CM to include the desert war plus Italy--essentially the Med--then it would seem to essentially include the CMBO timeframe and settings as well. As far as I can see, since Italy would get you into European terrain tiles and would carry you into 1945--(unless they arbitarily stopped with say June '43 or June '44 equipement), it would essentially include everything we need for an entire West front. Not sure when the equipment "clock" would start and stop.... anybody know? In any case, I hope they don't take us to Italy and then maroon us in 1943. That would be too tantalizing, esp. since we know the '44-'45 equipment is already there.

[Andrew H.]

There is more than a few weeks to early war - there is Poland, France (plus neutrals), Norway, the Winter War, Yugoslavia, Greece.

But still, it might make sense to have an Early War + Med combination.

[Barrold]

I suppose my completely unattached to official knowledge wild-ass speculation is a good as any.

It just doesn't seem right to make all the improvements to the game engine for the purpose of shrinking the theatre scope of the next game.

A true classic evolution of the series could be to make use of all of the research completed for the first two games and add the elements of the early portion of the war that are not already covered. East Front, West Front, and Med in one amazing package.

BDH

[energy76]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Good grief!

Too small a scale? CM is centred around company-to-battalion level.

I meant as a theatre in general, as in, a whole game just for Afrika, not the scale of the units.

So you dont have as many different types of units, you dont have as much variation in terrain etc</font>

[Danzig]

I think the next CM game should be a RPG based tactical warfare in the world of GI Joe. Think about all the cool new weaponry and soldiers we would see! I mean, who doesn't dream about a tactical battle map involving several H.I.S.S. Tanks versus some Joes armed with laser rifles and jetpacks!?!?

Throw in some great character acting, a spiffy soundtrack and you have yourself an instant best-seller!

Gooooooooo Joe!

[Col Deadmarsh]

I thought they were rough generalisations.

I will agree that the word no in reference to infantry in Afrika is a bit rough though, I would agree that transport and AFV's played a large role, and the perception that infantry had a lesser role would hold true to a lot of arguments, but no role? Nah.

Well, yeah...that's hyperbole. I admit I'm not familiar with the terrain of Africa and am simply going by what I see on TV. I just think it's silly to create an entirely new engine with all it's new graphic improvements and then base the game in Africa with such limited terrain features. Yes, I know we'll be in Italy too but that was a very small time frame, right? It seems to me that BTS should've done Africa/Mediterranean for CM2 and then saved their baby, the Ostfront, for the rewrite.

This also brings up another question, how are they intending to sell this next CM? After all, North Africa is not a popular theatre and most people didn't even know there was a Mediterranean theatre. So who will buy it outside of the wargaming grog community? I guess they will have to be content with marketing to a smaller niche than their previous games.

I for one am not happy that I will have to wait years for the next edition of the Western Front and possibly only get to play half the battles over there. It just doesn't make sense to go to a significantly smaller scale after having visited the Eastern Front with its myriad of units. They already have most of the data needed for all the units involved in the Western Front to recreate the entire theatre so why not do the whole shebang?

[ November 12, 2002, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by energy76:

North Africa was a 2 and a half to 3 year long campaign, longer the campaign in BO. The British changed their primary tank three or four times. Plus you have to model the whole Italian army in all it's "glory." There was a lot of technology being developed in that timespan...

Plus three more or less complete TO&E organisations for the British armoured division. Don't forget the Vichy French, the Free French, the Iraqis, the Iranis, the Greeks, the Poles, the Czechs, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the South Africans, East and West Africans, and Indians.

As for terrain, it wasn't all just desert either. In addition to the fertile littoral of French North Africa, there was also the fighting in Ethiopia and Somalia. All this is without leaving Africa. When we throw in Sicily, southern and northern Italy, well...

Another important factor is that while strategically North Africa may have been a side show, it was extremely important to the Western Allies as a learning environment where they learned how to deal with the Germans on the battlefield. The evolution of British tactics is interesting in itself. It is where the US Army was blooded in this war.

You will have the British (including the Commonwealth and Empire forces and their allies) against the Italians; the Germans and Italians against the British; the British against the Vichy; the Americans against the Vichy; the British, Americans, and the Free French against the Germans and Italians. Ultimately you have everybody against the Germans.

There's a lot more than meets the casual eye, my friends. The LRDG, the SAS, the SBS, the Commandos, Popski's Private Army (I'm not making this up). A lot was going on in the Med, even if it didn't mean the huge armies of the East and West Fronts. But that just makes it more comprehensible on a human scale.

Just a few thoughts. Don't shoot the idea of a Med/North Africa game down until you've given it more than a cursory examination.

Michael

[JonS]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

... am simply going by what I see on TV. ...

'nuff said.

Yes, I know we'll be in Italy too but that was a very small time frame, right? [/QB]

Italian Campaign (incl Sicily): 9th July 1943 till 2nd May 1945.

So, 22 months, compared to the 11 months of the campaign in NWE. I suppose 'very small time frame' depends on your point of view.

Regards

JonS

[Firefly]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

BTS seems to be staying out of this discussion so far--is there another thread where they've defined what the next CM will be? Will it be issued before or after an engine rewrite?

They've said frequently that their tentative plans (note emphasis) are for the new engine followed by the Mediterranean and early war after that. Anyway they kept the Finns happy with the East Front, it's the Aussies and Kiwis turn next .

[Hawk]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

This also brings up another question, how are they intending to sell this next CM? After all, North Africa is not a popular theatre and most people didn't even know there was a Mediterranean theatre.

And by "most people" we are talking about Americans again, right? And no, I'm not out to start a flame war! It's just that even before CMBO came out, quite a few people questioned the wisdom of creating an Eastern Front game, using the same argument you use above. As good as all came from Americans, if I remember correctly.

Africa and the rest of the Mediterranean area has a lot to offer in terms of varying terrain and hardware. Hell, it even has the odd GI Joe... (Operation Torch, anyone?)

Give it a chance. I think it's a safe bet that BTS will deliver pure magic again!

[Agua Perdido]

Originally posted by -E:

MadMatt vs Gammara (always bet on the spinning, fire breathing flying turtle!)

...but, would that be MadMatt or Gammera?

[leaps into foxhole]

Gammera is really neat!

He is filled with turtle meat!

We all love you Gammmmerrrrrraaaaaaa!

Agua Perdido

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Plus three more or less complete TO&E organisations for the British armoured division. Don't forget the Vichy French, the Free French, the Iraqis, the Iranis, the Greeks, the Poles, the Czechs, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the South Africans, East and West Africans, and Indians.

... and the Jewish Brigade; German, Italian, British and US paras; rangers; commandos; Brazilians; several TOEs for the Free French; French Colonial forces; Italian Colonail Forces; SS; The HG Parachute Pnzr Div; Alpini, Alpine, and Gebirgsjagers; a Negro US Div; etc.

Truly, far more varied than NWE.

[Steel Rain]

Well, since we are just speculating, I will weigh in. If I was BTS, I would go with the whole enchilada, cover from say 1937 to 1949 or so to allow for some interesting what if's. I also hope they allow non historic conflicts such as american vs soviet, say around 1942 Just my wish list.

Kevin;

[energy76]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes, I know we'll be in Italy too but that was a very small time frame, right?

Italian Campaign (incl Sicily): 9th July 1943 till 2nd May 1945.

So, 22 months, compared to the 11 months of the campaign in NWE. I suppose 'very small time frame' depends on your point of view.

Regards

JonS</font>

[Firefly]

Originally posted by energy76:

For those of you still not convinced, I recommend reading up on it a little and finding out how fascinating it was.

Agreed. Reading how the Aussies first went into action wearing their greatcoats, pinned back Foreign Legion style, because of the cold and rain, might shatter a few Hollywood inspired misconceptions about the Desert war .

Barrie Pitt's Crucible of War is a good start.

[mattman2000]

Aaarggh. I can't remember his name, but there was a British General who basically moppped North Africa with the Italians during the early days of that theater. Then he got yanked by his superiors. I have a book about it wherein the author states the general was undeniably brilliant, won victory after victory for the Allies, only to see his career go down the pooper. I read the thing about 18 months ago, and it's been sitting in a box for the past eight weeks or so (we just moved).

Anyway, it made for a fascinating read (especially when you realize just how initially unprepared either side was to fight in such terrain). I think it would be a great game.

[mattman2000]

Got it. It was Sir Richard O'Connor. Book was "The Desert Generals."