This picture is why we need a convoy command

[acrashb]

Since the beginning of recorded history - i.e., when the gold demo came out - some board members have clamoured for a convoy command. Other members responded: "it's a scenario design issue", "the AI will find a path for you", "it's not that hard with bounding-boxes", "what if the convoy didn't do exactly what you want it to", "sometimes they whack each other in real life", and the immortal "get over it".

This picture illustrates why a convoy command (e.g., 'follow that truck') would be a lifesaver,and allow for more varied scenarios. What you see is the tip of the iceberg, along one of several roads.

I'm playtesting a scenario with Dick Reece; and if I didn't feel the need to finish what I started, I'd have dropped out from frustration after the first couple of turns. Mindlessly dropping move, hunt, and fast commands across the same path again and again is no fun, and time-consuming. Plus the micro-managing of ensuring that they don't bunch up - in RL, the leader moves along at a nominal pace, and everyone else just follows (perhaps with an occasional love-tap).

Comments? Do we push for CMBB or wait for CM II?

[ April 16, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: aaronb ]

[Bruno Weiss]

Tin fer gud buddy.

[Kingfish]

A couple of days ago I posted a possible option to the follow command. Basically it consisted of a group move but with an added restriction that keeps units on the road. This does away with the dozens of waypoints needed to get a column to the front. Just window the group, choose leader and destination and choose 'stay on road'.

With the bigger maps in CMBB will come bigger OOBs. Dozens, even hundreds of vehicles having to advance thru vast expanses of Forest, deep snow or the Pripet marshes. Without a follow or convoy command it will be a micro-managing nightmare.

[acrashb]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

Basically it consisted of a group move but with an added restriction that keeps units on the road.[...]With the bigger maps in CMBB will come bigger OOBs.[...]Without a follow or convoy command it will be a micro-managing nightmare.

Hear, hear. Whether its 'follow' or 'stay on road', reducing the management is important - no surprise to find Kingfish thinking outside the box.

[CMplayer]

Tacops has a simple way of letting you copy and paste move orders from one unit to another. You just basically hand one vehicles waypoints to another. In CM you could plot the lead tanks' move, then use the same 'copy' command you use for text, and then paste it onto the group-clicked whole rest of the convoy.

This would save a lot of ordergiving time, though they could still get wadded up the way they do.

[flamingknives]

CMplayer, how does that work when each truck is an undetermined distance further back down the road than the leader?

Some kind of convoy command is needed though.

[CMplayer]

You get the same set of waypoints, so if you are a bit farther back, as long as the road is straight it's not a problem.

[Soddball]

Ayeee! My eyes! Unmodded CM screenshot!

My face is melting! My faaceee eeesss meeelltteeenngg!!!

*slump*

[-Havermeyer-]

Love your grass and houses, where'd you get those?

Are they CMMOS compliant?

[McAuliffe]

If there was one thing, that I was whining for during the beta days, it was the "follow the leader group command"

Me too, was hoping it would be THE new feature of CMBB. I prefer to play big scenarios and big maps.

(yeah, Cintheaux-Totalize is a blast)

If you have to spend more time on plotting then planning your tactics, something is wrong with a COMPUTER game. (Computers were made in the first place to eliminate repetitious manual work, no ?)

I was thinking of a group command, same as you do with a group move : You lock a group of units, designate a leader and start plotting the waypoints for that vehicle or unit.

The TacAI will move via the shortest way the other vehicles to the start point of the leader vehicle (like during an embarkment order) and from there, the other vehicles or units will follow the same waypoints as the leader did.

In order to avoid that they bump into each other at he end. They will stop at the same distance of the lead vehicle/unit as they were away from the leading vehicle/unit at the start. only they will be standing in a column

I would already be satisfied, if this was only possible in the "move" mode, as I understand that it would be too complex to adjust the various speeds in hunt or fast mode.

BTS do or fix somefink !

Can we go for a petition ?

[acrashb]

Originally posted by Soddball:

Ayeee! My eyes! Unmodded CM screenshot!

My face is melting! My faaceee eeesss meeelltteeenngg!!!

There's one in every crowd, and it's one too many. FYI, and for Havermeyer, that's "mad-dog mod pack" (1&2) with Surlyben's sky. The grass is stock for performance reasons. Havermeyer, you can get them at CMHQ .

If you have to spend more time on plotting then planning your tactics, something is wrong

Exactly,McAuliffe - that's why we don't use cardboard chits anymore.

[Moon]

Personally, I've never had a problem with getting "convoys" to move down a road. As long as you follow a couple of simple rules, it's easy. You'll find a couple of hints below. Mind you, I am not saying that a "convoy" order would be bad, I just don't think there's a realistic chance that it will happen before CM3.

First, you should only use the "move" command. It's the same speed for every vehicle by default (roughly walking pace). This ensures that, once everybody starts to move (and after a short acceleration phase), they move at the same speed.

Secondly, you need to leave space between each vehicle in the column. In real life, vehicles are separated by as much as 100 meters often. Trying to have units move within 10 meters from each other is simply not real.

As for plotting orders, that can be easy, too. Simply change the "show paths" setting to anything else beside "show all paths". That way, you will only see the path you are plotting for the unit you have currently selected.

Take it for what it's worth...

Martin

[acrashb]

Your points are correct: move works better than fast for obvious reasons - but bumping is not what we're most concerned about. Rather, the plotting effort/time is at issue.

Simply change the "show paths" setting to anything else beside "show all paths". That way, you will only see the path you are plotting for the unit you have currently selected.

This misses, I think, the point. In the picture, I left the lines on to illustrate not the mass of orders overlapping each other, but to graphically show the sheer number of waypoints one must plot to get a decent-sized convoy (not a dozen ht's, but several dozen) moving down any road with turns. It's even more challenging when views 7/8 are too high to accurately place waypoints, and lower views don't cover the entire path (leading to a lot of scrolling and panning).

McAuliffe said it best.

So, if we have to wait we have to wait, but it certainly puts a crimp on the kinds of scenarios that will be playable in CMBB. Either large with infantry (less plotting), or small to medium with vehicles - on anything other than dry and treeless.

[Rod]

Shew it's been awhile since I last posted...but after about twenty user names and password combinations I finally got back in.

Anyway after lurking on and off for the last year or so I thought I would add my two cents to this one. Obviously I feel this is an important issue. For me getting to the battle is half the battle and half the fun.

I would like to see the ability to plot "master" paths and then attach units too it. The path would stay there until deleted and units would automatically try to work their way to it via the easiest or plotted route. Once they get to it (no matter where along the route) they would try to follow it to the best of their ability. If distracted by fire they would return to it at the earliest convenience. Once they get to the end they would stop unless another command is given. Maybe it could even be smart enough to maintain a certain separation between units. If one gets to the end the others would go until the min separation from the unit ahead is achieved.

Anyway this is probably too late in the process but maybe somewhere down the road it or something similar could be implemented. (What pun I see no pun)

[McAuliffe]

@ Moon,

Come on, man...how long do you think we're playing this game ?

If you are able to implement cover arc fire, assault commands, spreading fires or for god's sake, flying dust around bulletimpacts, I do think, that ignoring this significant improvement for gameplay is a serious mistake.

For one, it keeps me away of TCP/IP playing and secondly, it makes MY interest in playing the game in general just fading away.

[Directive#21]

I agree! Issuing orders to move multiple vehicles along the same path is frustrating enough to make large, complex scenarios unenjoyable!

-Directive #21

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

You get the same set of waypoints, so if you are a bit farther back, as long as the road is straight it's not a problem.

Yeah, but if the road ain't straight it's could be a major PITA if you get bogged as a result. HOWEVER...ISTR that TacOps had a way to implement this smoothly. It's been a couple of years since the last time I played (a situation I hope to improve with the release of v4 ), but as I remember it, I would plot the second vehicle's move up to the position of the lead vehicle and then copy lead's plot. Third vehicle would then plot up to second's position and then copy his plot. And so on down the line. Only slightly labor intensive and you were sure that everybody went where they were supposed to go.

Michael

[Simon Fox]

Originally posted by Moon:

Personally, I've never had a problem with getting "convoys" to move down a road. As long as you follow a couple of simple rules, it's easy. You'll find a couple of hints below. Mind you, I am not saying that a "convoy" order would be bad, I just don't think there's a realistic chance that it will happen before CM3.

First, you should only use the "move" command. It's the same speed for every vehicle by default (roughly walking pace). This ensures that, once everybody starts to move (and after a short acceleration phase), they move at the same speed.

Secondly, you need to leave space between each vehicle in the column. In real life, vehicles are separated by as much as 100 meters often. Trying to have units move within 10 meters from each other is simply not real.

As for plotting orders, that can be easy, too. Simply change the "show paths" setting to anything else beside "show all paths". That way, you will only see the path you are plotting for the unit you have currently selected.

Take it for what it's worth...

Martin

All good points Martin except that:

(1) It is still very time consuming.

(2) The AI remains ignorant of these "simple rules".

[BloodyBucket]

I have no idea how hard this concept would be to implement, but it is one of the main reasons I tend to prefer smaller scenarios. The other is the wimpy 350 Mhz machine I own. Moving lots of vehicles down roads is a major bummer.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by Michael emrys:

as I remember it, I would plot the second vehicle's move up to the position of the lead vehicle and then copy lead's plot.

Sure.

If you have a column of vehicles going around a bend you can copy from a jump-off point. It works fine.

But I really like the idea someone recently said of preplotting a 'path' which units can then hook up to, like hopping on the bus.

[CMplayer]

Another thing, in all seriousness, some convoy SOPs as to how to react if a vehicle comes under fire would be necessary if CM is ever going to be at all realistic (which it isn't now, not even close). As it is now, if the lead tank gets blasted you can see vehicle after vehicle keep piling up into the bottleneck from behind, as they all try to execute their separate movement orders without the slightest clue of the fact that they're supposed to be in a convoy. It would work a lot better if convoys, and possibly other higher level task forces, were 'understood' by the system and able to be given SOP behaviors as a unit.

[CMplayer]

double post, blame microsoft

[ April 17, 2002, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[McAuliffe]

Originally posted by CMplayer:

Another thing, in all seriousness, some convoy SOPs as to how to react if a vehicle comes under fire would be necessary if CM is ever going to be at all realistic (which it isn't now, not even close). As it is now, if the lead tank gets blasted you can see vehicle after vehicle keep piling up into the bottleneck from behind, as they all try to execute their separate movement orders without the slightest clue of the fact that they're supposed to be in a convoy. It would work a lot better if convoys, and possibly other higher level task forces, were 'understood' by the system and able to be given SOP behaviors as a unit.

To be honest, I think this falls under the responsability of the player. After all, this is a game where it's up to you to take desicions and anticipate treads. If you decide to move your vehicles up in a column, it's clear that you do not expect an ambush on that specific road otherwhise you would approach the area, deployed in a battleorder.

Of course, the TacAI should take care that the vehicles do not bump into each other and deviate from the pre-plotted path when a shot up vehicle blocks the path, but from what I experienced, this already happens.

Furthermore, I believe that in CMBB a command "move to contact" will be available, that will meet partly your request.

...preplotting a 'path' which units can then hook up to, like hopping on the bus...

This express really well what we're looking for, as I believe copying paths will result in the fact that the copied path will not always match the curves and the bends in a road.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by McAuliffe:

I believe copying paths will result in the fact that the copied path will not always match the curves and the bends in a road.

Of course it will. What is copied is a set of waypoints...they remain where they are on the map, they aren't shifted to be relative to the different starting positions of the units.

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by McAuliffe:

If you decide to move your vehicles up in a column, it's clear that you do not expect an ambush on that specific road otherwhise you would approach the area, deployed in a battleorder.

That reflects a really different attitude than the one I hold. In my opinion a tactical simulator should allow you the latitude to make all the mistakes and see for yourself why they don't work, in a realistic fashion.

If vehicles form a convoy, then they should be treated as a higher level entity with its own behaviors. I suspect that from the start, CM was imagined as a company level game with just a relatively small level of vehicles in support. But if 20+ vehicles are moving along a road it produces silly results to have each treated as a separate unit each trying to fulfill its own isolated movement orders.