Gamey? Deception via PBEM email text

[jbertles]

C'mon. We've all done it.

There are two kinds of PBEM opponents: those who engage in turn-by-turn chatter; and those who don't. With the former, of course, this doesn't happen.

But with the chatterers, there exists the possibility of spoofing with duplicitous propaganda: deliberately leading the opponent down the primrose path wearing rose-colored glasses.

(I guess if you are foolish enough to believe what your opponent tells you then you deserve what is coming.)

Still, even by hinting at possibiilities, you are sublty changing the nature of the game through the email text. So -- is that gamey?

Personally, I'm all for it. Think of a poker game without conversation...

[Kingfish]

Who is doing this? Is it another ROW opponent?

Let me know who it is, and i'll...i'll...spot them 10 points.

[gautrek]

My turn by turn chatter is normaly of the,You git thats my last tank you have just killed.

Or why the **** doesn't my bleeding anti tank gun ever kill any thing at all.

Or where the **** did they come from.

So yes i suppose if you want to call it propaganda then yes it is.

[imported_no_one]

Subterfuge.I do it,and it does work.

[Vadr]

Hey I was just kidding about the curve-ball with the demo charge; it really was a splitter...

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I keep bluffing that my battalion of King Tigers are ready to snap the trap shut. When playing CMAK it doesn't work too often. :confused: Hideously under/over stating my strength is something of a hobby, though occasionally I set out to actually deceive, that too is fun on occasion. It does work sometimes too. That's even better.

It's either that or Olympic level whinging, which I found to be quite fun too.

Anything is better them returning a file without comment. That just creeps me out.

[Andrew Kulin]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I keep bluffing that my battalion of King Tigers are ready to snap the trap shut. When playing CMAK it doesn't work too often. :confused:

So does that mean my opponent in Maleme won't believe me when I say I have a platoon of KTs on the way? :eek:

[Richie]

It all seems a little cold without the banter...

and if you can give your opponent at a false sense of security...

MuHahAHaHAR

[Kingfish]

Originally posted by Andrew Kulin:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I keep bluffing that my battalion of King Tigers are ready to snap the trap shut. When playing CMAK it doesn't work too often. :confused:

So does that mean my opponent in Maleme won't believe me when I say I have a platoon of KTs on the way? :eek: </font>

[Andrew Kulin]

Originally posted by Kingfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andrew Kulin:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

I keep bluffing that my battalion of King Tigers are ready to snap the trap shut. When playing CMAK it doesn't work too often. :confused:

So does that mean my opponent in Maleme won't believe me when I say I have a platoon of KTs on the way? :eek: </font>

[Bannon DC]

It's not really "gamey" at all. Gamey would be something like the "half squad" thread over in the CMBB forum (talking about the tactic of splitting all of your infantry into half squads and flooding your opponent with numerous targets). That is something the AI system allows you to do that would be unrealistic in the CM world of a WW2 combat simulation. But, what the hell... if it works.

Planting doubt or outright misinformation in your opponent's mind is what war is all about. Of course, if you are playing with an opponent who lies outright that is a bit slimey. But, next time you play him, you'll know he is a bad liar.

[Andrew Kulin]

Just my two cents on the 1/2 squad thing.

Why is it gamey? Seems to serve two puposes to me:

1. It may confuse your opponent as to the size of your force, which seems to me to be an effective way to plant doubt or outright misinformation in your opponent's mind which is what war is all about.

2. Spreads out your men while they are advancing forward, particularly across open ground. It would seem like something that would happen in a real situation as well.

Anyhow, back to our regularly scheduled discussion ...

[jbertles]

Vadr:

And now coming in from the bullpen, wait... no, it can't be... yes it is! It's Ted Kaczynsky! I guess he got tired of mailing bombs; now he's going to throw them instead!

Hard to tell what he's got in that beard...

[GreenAsJade]

1) Please dont start another 1/2 squad thread here. It's been done to death already.

2) I enjoy the banter and taunting with opponents who are inclined that way. When that's happening, there's bound to be a the possibility of propaganda. It's certainly not "gamey". Gamey means taking advantage of the way the simulation works in a way that's not at all realistic or intended by the designer.

On the other hand, it is a slippery slope. Where's the line between fun part-of-the-game propaganda and obvious blatant lying? And if you get sprung lying, how will you handle it?

These problems are the sort of thing you encounter when you play Diplomacy (anyone remember that?). I personally found in that game the sheer _necessity_ to lie made it not a fun game. People get hurt by lies, even if its "just part of a game". People don't like being taken in - the moment of realisation that you were duped is never nice. Is that what you want to be part of? Can you avoid it? ...

[Grimly Fiendish]

That question has often occurred to me. And my answer I get is always: DO IT!

I'm with Elmar on this.

If you must, lie until your opponent distrusts you. Then, tell the truth. Misinformation is never so effective as then!

(Of course, this doesn't extend to hard info like a description of a QuickBattle map. That would be unsportsmanlike.)

[yacinator]

Saying that misleading your pbem opponent is gamey is like saying that that whole DDay thing with fake divisions etc is gamey. Gamey means that you're doing something that would have never been done in real life. I'm not a grog but it's obvious to me that deception has been used in real life.

[Vadr]

Originally posted by jbertles:

...a man with a manifesto, and a sneaky slider...

ROFLMAO!

[jbertles]

It's true that a lot of my chatter consists of plaintive whining punctuated by derisive snorts.

Of course deception was used in RL, but I doubt many opposing commanders have had direct lines to each other.

I tend to think the email banter is outside the scope of the game and therefore no holds barred (although if I had a penny for every time I spent far more time on the banter than the turn it accompanied.... remember that nightmare-ish punning marathon, Andrew?).

[Andrew Kulin]

Originally posted by jbertles:

It's true that a lot of my chatter consists of plaintive whining punctuated by derisive snorts.

Of course deception was used in RL, but I doubt many opposing commanders have had direct lines to each other.

I tend to think the email banter is outside the scope of the game and therefore no holds barred (although if I had a penny for every time I spent far more time on the banter than the turn it accompanied.... remember that nightmare-ish punning marathon, Andrew?).

Hey! You still owe me a turn from our non-ROW PBEM. Can't take the PUN-ishment?

[GreenAsJade]

[ February 11, 2005, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: GreenAsJade ]

[Other Means]

I always tell the absolute truth to my PBEM opponents.

The ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

[dieseltaylor]

I try to be careful not to mislead my opponent by banter. I make jokes about the situation - the battalion of King Tigers, the 14" naval guns only when it is obviously absurd. I think to mislead to unduly benefit yourself is a true gamesmanship.

Of course if you do not mind people not playing yuo in the future and mentioning your name as a weasel fair dinkum.

[tooz]

PBEM banter is a must for playtesters. Examples:

1) Does this battle suck?

2) Why does it suck?

3) What needs to be done so it could suck less (unsuck?)

OR:

4) Are you really that stupid or just the worst CMer out there? (this could apply to me )

Does my post suck? Why does...

[dangerousdave]

As the great Captain Kirk once said, "Everything I say is a lie."

[Stavka_lite]

- posted February 12, 2005 18:31 Profile for dangerousdave Email dangerousdave Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote As the great Captain Kirk once said, "Everything I say is a lie."

"I am lying"