Super German vision

[SpitfireXI]

I have noticed this problem before but recently its bugged me so much that I had to write here to find out more. Going against German armor either as Russians, Commonwealth, and Americans, I find that my tankers often have a hard time seeing the German tanks but being fired upon ny German tanks at the same time. I am not talking about tanks buttoned up. During the last game I had a Sherman unbuttoned no one firing at him and a Panzer not Panther sees him and fires twice before my Sherman commander decided to fire back. On a CMBB game I remember a ISU moving unbuttoned through scattered woods being fired on by a Panther. I was able to notice that the Pather had a nice red line straight to my tank but from the ISU position a blocked line back to the Panther. I can sort of understand the Panther being able to see a tank in 1000 meter range but the Sherman versus regular Panther problem has left me very frustrated. Any ideas on what gives?

[Michael Emrys]

Moving vehicles are visible at much greater range than staionary ones. Unbuttoned tanks have better spotting ability. Borg spotting skews the whole issue. If there were any German infantry that spotted your vehicle, the German tank would know about it instantly. Superior German optical sights may have come into play. In these battles, the Germans might have enjoyed an experience advantage. As for the case of one unit being able to spot and aim through an object that blocks the reciprocal sightline, that is a quirk of CM graphics too complicated to go into at the moment.

In brief, there could be a lot of reasons for what you observed, some good, some not so good. Without knowing a whole lot more about the particular situations, it's impossible to pin it down further than that. But don't count on the advantage always going to the Germans.

Michael

[melb_will]

Well, maybe after your tank got fired upon the first time they were to busy changing their pants to look around for who was shooting at them.

Realistically I would say that it is because the Germans typically had better optics than everyone else. On the list of things that allies stole from German PoW's, field glasses ranked very high (after watches and pistols) the Zeiss Binoculars are still the class of the world.

Cheers

Will

[MikeyD]

I'm usually able to get the drop on my German opponents if I'm stationary, hull-down, and using a cover arc. Under those circumstances I'll often see them before they see me. But under more 'even' circumstances German optics & cupolas will almost always outgun me - unless the Germans are totally green or I've got a late model 76mm gun E8 Sherman. Those tanks are GOOD!

[Bone_Vulture]

Hasn't it been argued before that the German improved optics in CM prove not the accuracy, but the field of vision for the tank's crew?

[SpitfireXI]

I initially beleived it was the German optic superiority but in one battle my Shermans were less than 500 meters from the offending German tank. Do optics even matter at that close a range?

[David Chapuis]

Well in the last game I played, I had not one, not two, but THREE American HT driving single file right towards one of my stationary stugs. They were pinging the Stug with MG fire for at least 30 secs of the turn. The stug didnt button, didnt have a crew kill, and never once targetted those HTs. It was turn 1, and those were the only american units spotted on the entire map.

At the end of the turn, I checked LOS, and of course he could see them, but I knew that because he was being shot at. It was quit frustrating.

Explain that mystery.

[Conscript Bagger]

armor cover arc?

[samurai man]

Well I had a Panzer IVJ advance into the sight of a M10 played by the AI. The M10 fired three shots at 43 meters before my panzer could react. All three shots hit but the shells desintegrated. On top of that some US infantry charged my panzer and hit it with a grenade. My completely undammaged panzer then fired one shot and knocked out the M10 and machine gunned the charging US infantry. Please explain that.

[flamingknives]

Shatter gap, the inefficiency of handgrenades against heavy armour, luck and the thin armour of the M10, and the effectiveness of machine guns at people in the open.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by samurai man:

[...] The M10 fired three shots at 43 meters before my panzer could react. [...] My completely undammaged panzer then fired one shot and knocked out the M10 and machine gunned the charging US infantry. Please explain that.

You were awfully lucky. Good for you, but I'd still put my money on the M10 at this close a range.

Cheers

[Ardem]

I am not sure about CMAK, I have not looked at it from this point of view but the german crews are tweaked in CMBB, take for instance a captured T-34 to a T-34 with both crew exactly the same "say green", if you notice to command time the german crews are faster and more efficent and 9/10 will kill the opposing T-34.

I believe there is a lot of programming that adds other values other then the stats which you see on the information screen especially about crews. Its a pity this information is not broadcasted.

[MikeyD]

"The M10 fired three shots at 43 meters..."

I first saw this way back in CMBO. Tanks seem to have a weird minimum range thing going on. A shot fired at 10m willl perform like a shot fired from 30mm willl perform like a shot fired from 80m. There doesn't seem to be such a thing a 'point blank' hit probability. The weirdest aspect of this is when you start a game with an enemy tank right next to your own. It can sometimes take a couple turns before the two tanks even notice eachother!

[rune]

Ardem,

You do realize the captured T-34 is NOT the same as the generic Russian one? Cupola for better viewing, different ammo, and etc.

Rune

[Brent Pollock]

I once set up a "pace-turn-and-fire" duel (frankly, I forget why) between a StuG and a captured StuG on a straight piece of road. They started out touching back-to-back and unbuttoned. Played it vs AI and hotseat and either way, so long as you gave no orders, they were content to sit there doing sod all about one another. Once you gave one or both an order (a move was enough...can't recall if a targetting order did anything), then the duel was on.

Originally posted by MikeyD:

[snipped by Brent] The weirdest aspect of this is when you start a game with an enemy tank right next to your own. It can sometimes take a couple turns before the two tanks even notice eachother!

[Philippe]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"The M10 fired three shots at 43 meters..."

I first saw this way back in CMBO. Tanks seem to have a weird minimum range thing going on. A shot fired at 10m willl perform like a shot fired from 30mm willl perform like a shot fired from 80m. There doesn't seem to be such a thing a 'point blank' hit probability. The weirdest aspect of this is when you start a game with an enemy tank right next to your own. It can sometimes take a couple turns before the two tanks even notice eachother!

And I haven't noticed anydifference between firing infantry small arms at 40 meters and at ten. Not a big deal, really, but somehow it doesn't seem quite right.

[Ardem]

Regardless if the T-34's are different the command times of the crews are very different.

I do know the ammo was different, but I didn't know the commander cupola was, or any other additions made by the germans.

Either way the crew times of a german green crew and a russian green crew are very different i think the closest I can get the crews similar is Jan 1945, but germans still ahead.

[Wicky]

IIRC German and Soviet experience levels aren't equal. A Soviet 'green' unit is compared to its German equivalent, more like a 'conscript' . This I believe reflects the difference in time spent training.

Originally posted by Ardem:

Regardless if the T-34's are different the command times of the crews are very different.

I do know the ammo was different, but I didn't know the commander cupola was, or any other additions made by the germans.

Either way the crew times of a german green crew and a russian green crew are very different i think the closest I can get the crews similar is Jan 1945, but germans still ahead.

[Moon]

Originally posted by David Chapuis:

Well in the last game I played, I had not one, not two, but THREE American HT driving single file right towards one of my stationary stugs. They were pinging the Stug with MG fire for at least 30 secs of the turn. The stug didnt button, didnt have a crew kill, and never once targetted those HTs. It was turn 1, and those were the only american units spotted on the entire map.

At the end of the turn, I checked LOS, and of course he could see them, but I knew that because he was being shot at. It was quit frustrating.

Explain that mystery.

Are you sure the StuG wasn't buttoned? IIRC it has a fairly narrow view once buttoned, so it's possible that the targets were outside of the viewing angle? (units in CM do not spot equally well in all directions, so the fact that LOS exists does not have to mean that the enemy units is automatically spotted and engaged; there is a random factor in it)

Martin

[stikkypixie]

Originally posted by Wicky:

IIRC German and Soviet experience levels aren't equal. A Soviet 'green' unit is compared to its German equivalent, more like a 'conscript' . This I believe reflects the difference in time spent training.

I don't think is true, green troops are green troops regardless. The only difference is the command delay.

[Denwad]

I've had 88mm L/56 bounce of the vanilla shermans (NON-JUMBOS) in the Knifefight at Cecnia or whatever it's called

luckiest shot ever, my sherman had presented itself to the tiger, I thought it was a goner. The Tiger fired and hit the front hull which was about 10 degrees visible or something

but it bounced

and the Sherman fired, and the Tiger brewed up