A thoughtful note& Combat Mission graphics survey!

[Gurra]

How do you people experience Combat Mission's environment, and what are your opinions about the graphics importance?

It came to mind, since I for myself spends quite some time trying to find mods and making own mods to make the game prettier, which leads to this neverending spiral of optimization, instead of a neverending spiral of play. This kind of habit is reasonably nice anyway, even though it is also a kind of hollow experience, since the game fests one imagines will be the result after hard work of graphics fiddling, very seldom come true.

Instead, the new beautiful terrain elements or vehicles that´s been installed calls for actions taken with what is left unaffected.

I reckon a lot of people nurse the opinion that the graphics are of no importance. Yes, I agree with that to a certain degree. Better graphics will not make CM a better game. That´s how it is. But, if the computing result and the mechanics of wargaming would be the only thing of interest, then I could more or less stick with a complicated board game. You can win or loose according to your skill in such a game.

Am I the only one that more often than not don´t give a damn about whether I´m loosing or winning?

What I do give a damn about is how I have experienced the journey to either victory or defeat. This is a bit exaggerated, but true in it´s essence.

I remember there was a post in this forum a while ago about what different people wished for the next game engine when it arrives. I do not remember the people behind the posts, but somone asked for better animations, specifically for infantry in various situations. Another one said that he couldn´t care a less.

I find that reply hard to believe. Wouldn´t we all want the possibility to control an environment with actors in it, that appears as almost the real thing?

I played through Call of Duty some 6 months ago. That is at certain times a very good game. The play isn´t much different from any old FPS; the experience is a huge difference. Maybe the sound does the best job, or maybe, it is situations when you suddenly stop to look at the Germans you just shot: their faces express something. And that makes you all of a sudden very aware of what you are doing. Perhaps I wouldn´t want CM to include agony and death horror, but I would welcome true to life animations for both infantry and vehicles along with that much asked for "battle play back", because if that were the case, Combat Mission would be the BEST GAME EVER MADE IN ALL CATEGORIES. Action and intelligence nicely blended into one irresistable package.

Perhaps this is a worn out issue, but I would really find it interesting to hear others opinions in this matter.

Gurra

[Big Jim]

I think there is always room for improvement with graphics, and until I see what looks pretty indistinguishable from the real thing, I'll never be truly sated.

However, graphics should never be sacrificed for gameplay- if graphics are the CM high which hooks you in, then gameplay is the CM addiction which keeps you coming back for more.

[Holman]

I got caught in exactly this kind of "modding spiral" with CMBO, and I'm sure I spent more time downloading and looking at vehicle and uniform mods than I did actually playing the game. (And this was with a dial-up connection!)

Eventually I felt the imbalance, and I have rectified it with CMBB and now CMAK. As much as I admire the work that modders do, I'm limiting myself to downloading only winter mods. These, in my opinion, are a must-have because the games do not ship with them, and it looks too weird to see green tanks fighting in deep snow.

I do go to the CM Mod Database and cruise the new vehicles sometimes, admiring the screenshots. But I'm happy to say that now most of my CM time is spent on the battlefield.

[Jack Carr]

Personal opinion. The stock graphics I feel are pretty darn good certainly from a historical perspective. I also find myself caught up in the "more mods than play" spiral. The modders in the CM community do such good work and make the CM environment so much better looking it's incredible.

I don't think too much about once I mod this tank or that terrain that I'll have to start doing everything in the game. Instead, I am content to find a good mod and know that that particular visual will be better than it was. It just keeps getting better one tank at a time or one terrain element at a time or one uniform at a time.

For me, there are far too many great mods not to try to make it look better. Take a look at Michael Dorosh's ASL line of mods. Neat stuff indeed. I think they place the emphasis more on the tactical element of the game much like ASL, Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader. I think this is kinda nice as well because if you think about the various units within the game, vehicles seem to be one-for-one while infantry are more abstracted, 3 men shown for a 9 to 12 man squad. Kinda like ASL, Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader in that one counter=multiple occurences of the unit represented. I think there is something to be said for that. I'm thinking about downloading his mod sets and creating an alternate BMP folder just to check it out.

[MikeyD]

I remember waaaay back during the CMBB Beta (years ago now!) before all the textures were finished many tanks and troops came draped in 'clown color' skins - simple bmp color chips as placeholders until the textures became available. It's odd to say, but i don't think I've enjoyed playing the game as much as with those plain brightly colored textures.

I've done a LOT of modding of CM in my day, and I'm rather proud of my much-needed T34 textures for CMBB. But I'm also a bit ashamed that I haven't produced a dozen imaginative CMAK combat scenarios. Mods are style - Scenarios are substance.

[Michael Emrys]

I have carefully avoided the modding spiral as I recognized early on what a trap that could be. I have very few mods at present and nearly all of those are terrain. I think the modders do a really great job and for those who find satisfaction in that area I say more power to 'em. I used to make models of all sorts when I was young, and can readily appreciate the appeal. I just no longer have the time to fixate on that aspect of the game.

Thus, my graphics are almost all stock. And pretty nice too, I may add. While having great mods might add something to my pleasure in playing the game, I can't say I miss them. If the next interation of CM has better graphics and more animations, fine, you aren't apt to hear me complain. But it isn't a top prioriity with me. Some other things are, and they are all related to gameplay.

Just my opinion, but that's what was asked for, nicht?

Michael

[Gpig]

Things have come a long way, baby.

Being an animator myself, I'm dying to see more fluid and life-like animations. But I'm satisfied with where the game sits right now. The level of animation works perfectly with the "simulation" aspect of CM.

The thing is, adding all that eyecandy comes with a cost. Maybe the "skookum" animations would only kick in if the camera was down at level 1. I wonder if that would make any difference?

Speaking from experience, it takes a LOT of work to pull off realistic animation. And if it takes away from a quality gaming experience, it doesn't matter in the end.

Like at Pixar, it's STORY first, THEN animation. So for BFC (as it's always been), game mechanics first, THEN the eyecandy.

All that being said, I can't wait to see what comes down the pipe, next.

Gpig

[Colonel J Lee]

I agree wholeheartedly with Michael Emrys' comments. Excellent.

Good graphics ARE important, but when they are good enough, then all I want to know is how REALISTIC is the game play. And CM is the best out there. Period. In all categories except maybe graphics (and the graphics are VERY good if not the best). Mods are great, but I'm afraid of them. Lots of extra time could be absorbed which I don't have for a small "net difference" in enjoyment. However, of course, I'll take the more detailed graphics in a new release if all other categories don't suffer as a result.

[Gurra]

Hmm...comforting hearing I´m not the only one going through/having gone through obsessive optimizing.

I´m thinking about what MikeyD said. He enjoyed playing with those "clown colour" skins. And then Jack Carr's point on the ASL mod, on which I agree totally.

I can understand very well the joy of playing with those simple skins, it puts the weight very much on the tactics. So do ASL, as Jack Carr pointed out. If you have close to perfect graphics, you may loose that fine "board game tactics feeling", and instead focus on the visual action instead. And my conclusion still is: I want both in a good balance.

And CMAK actually looks very nice, compared with CMBO.

It was just the infantry that was a little stiff after yesterdays exercise...

[scoop88]

I'm with MikeyD. Cool graphics are nice, but I much prefer an accurate historical scenario to play. I've been reading about WWII for decades longer than I care to admit, and it is a terrific experience to see actual events come to life in a way that's not possible unless you could go back in time and see the real thing!

Still, a big thanks goes to all the modders out there. I, too, went "mod-crazy" with CMBO, but I eventually reconciled with sticking to terrain mods most of the time. For me, the graphics payoff is better looking and more realistic terrain than a vehicle mod. Still download vehicle mods, but not nearly as much as in the days of CMBO.

[Panzer76]

The stock vehicle gfx is good, the "problem" as I see it is the terrain. It looks blocky and not very realistic.

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi

Am I the only one that more often than not don´t give a damn about whether I´m loosing or winning?

What I do give a damn about is how I have experienced the journey to either victory or defeat. This is a bit exaggerated, but true in it´s essence.

With my win : loss ratio being what it is, it is a damn good thing that I too enjoy the game for its own sake

Like yourself I want my cake but want to eat it too , I love the CM system as a simulation and game system in itself but I also love Mods and the ability of graphics to 'draw me in' to the game environment.

Being a wargamer who comes from background of Miniatures as well as Boardgaming I guess I like the 'paint-jobs' as much as the actual units in game ability.

As regards MD excellent ASL Mods I found I used them in their entirety for a while (more as a nostalgia thing I guess) but then went back to 'standard' CM appearence (although I still use a good deal of his mods for interface/menus and suchlike).

I think that BFC are to be much appluaded for giving us the open-ended option to Mod the game graphics to our own satisfaction and the work of the modders like yourself is much appreciated in this neck of the woods for giving me so many options. Progs like CMMOS and

McMMM make things so smooth too (think back to early CMBO mods and having to switch them all in and out manually :eek: )

Personally I see CM as greatest invention since the wheel but then I am easily impressed

Cheers

[markl]

Yes I go a bit overboard with the mods. But I would like to see a bit more emersion if possible but I do not know in what way. I trust the game makers in that respect based on what they have done so far.

The only type of mods I have problems with are mods like the high detailed pavement mods which make me go a bit sea sick when I scroll to fast.

I like nice smooth textures that are easy on the eye when scrolling for scenery, but very detailed soldiers and vehicles for up close.

I would like to see some destructible terrain including bridges in the next version.

I had the slight impression that CMAK voices, scenario length etc was aimed at a slightly younger audience that the last two versions, if that is correct more immersion could be on the cards. But that is probably not correct.

Anyway we will all like the next game better, so it is all speculation and hope while we wait!

[Alkiviadis]

I think we all go thru the graphics spiral. Like working on the W/E on one's auto. I found that after approx. 6+ months, as I get the visuals I want the tinkering urge decreases & my playtime increases in direct proportion. I keep a copy of the stock graphics & my heavily modded version on the side to goback if I have to. As it is evey cloud in the sky, every leaf, blade of grass, uniform & vehicle is modded in all my copies of CMxx.

[Heliotic]

The thing I really look out for are the sounds.

I've spent a heap of time downloading various sound mods, and now when I play with the door closed and the sound cranked up, I really feel the explosions.

[Publius Cornelius Patton]

Perhaps I wouldn´t want CM to include agony and death horror, but I would welcome true to life animations for both infantry and vehicles along with that much asked for "battle play back", because if that were the case, Combat Mission would be the BEST GAME EVER MADE IN ALL CATEGORIES. Action and intelligence nicely blended into one irresistable package.

Indeed. The "perfect" wargame/simulation would be uber-realistic in terms of wargame physics etc., but be fun and easy to play.

As for graphics, I humbly beg and entreat Battlefront to make sure that the CM games continue to remain playable on a 500mHz 2000-era iMac.

Moreover, I'm more likely to "mod" for CMBO than CMAK. Right now I've got DD's uniform and grass mods on my CMBO game, as well as a reduced-size version of that "High-high-res" building mod. There are a few mods for the Shermans, the Pershings, the Halftracks, and some of the German stuff as well (such as the "King" Tiger) CMAK? No mods there, as I think the graphics are good. (Though, as I mentioned on another thread, there is a certain tank uniform I would like modded. )

Like basically everyone else said, gameplay first, then graphics.

God bless,

Publius Cornelius Patton

[MikeyD]

"Am I the only one that more often than not don´t give a damn about whether I´m loosing or winning?"

Which would you rather play, a defensive game where you're boringly unbreakable, or a defensive game where you find yourself brilliantly outmaneuvered? Sometime winning a scenario handily can be pretty dull.

[Big Jim]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"Am I the only one that more often than not don´t give a damn about whether I´m loosing or winning?"

Which would you rather play, a defensive game where you're boringly unbreakable, or a defensive game where you find yourself brilliantly outmaneuvered? Sometime winning a scenario handily can be pretty dull.

So that's how the Germans lost the war really...

[gautrek]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"Am I the only one that more often than not don´t give a damn about whether I´m loosing or winning?"

No your not.

I am playing a few PBEM games with some of my mates.

These are guys who i have played D&D and other stuff like Risk with over about 20 odd years.

And why do i still play against them.

because we don't care who wins(though we do gloat a little if we do ) but we like playing for a laugh.

Non of us are any good at tactics at this game but we still love it.

And we all know that even if the odds are against us you can still rely on the other guy to cock up big time and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[MikeyD]

Credit where credit is due. The quote's out of Gurra's original post at the top.

[junk2drive]

i play the a.i. for a draw or minor victory. a major vic means it was too easy. if i see a major defeat coming, i restart. a loss can teach and improve.

[MikeyD]

With no KTs in CMAK the percentage of laughably hopeless situations seems to be rather smaller than with CMBB. First, there's the blessed Bazooka (really missed in CMBB), and even your meanest opponent in CMAK is capable of being killed by that 6 pdr hiding in the bushes (as long as he's got a few tungsten rounds handy).

... Of course, if you tend to play italian conscripts vs Matildas you might disagree with me on that point.

[gautrek]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

With no KTs in CMAK the percentage of laughably hopeless situations seems to be rather smaller than with CMBB. First, there's the blessed Bazooka (really missed in CMBB), and even your meanest opponent in CMAK is capable of being killed by that 6 pdr hiding in the bushes (as long as he's got a few tungsten rounds handy).

... Of course, if you tend to play italian conscripts vs Matildas you might disagree with me on that point.

Yes i agree but i still do like (and play)CMBB.

So its still a laugh a minute for me.

[Gurra]

I must modify my own words...

Am I the only one that more often than not find myself enjoying the game for what it is in all its glory, rather than enjoying the amount of ones own success.

I do actually give a damn about winning in this game, but I am also very much occupied with the sensation of how genuinly fantastic it is that this game really exist. And now that is does, I don´t see any limitations for the future as how to reach an even more convincingly illusion of WW2, building on what´s already there.

I believe BFC are some clever and insightful people.

And until they release the new iteration of the series, it would be true genius to release the KT in a patch to make CMAK the final and worthy omni-potential game environment in the CM universe.

Right?

[Frenchy]

I use very few mods and find the original graphics just fine. I am more into game play. However with the ongoing work on CM2, I am looking forward to the "new look", whatever that may be!