Thinking of putting together a Meta-campaign - Any one interested?

[Sivodsi]

Yeah, I'd love to give this ago. Preferably as Russians, but I don't mind playing axis.

I have a half-decent playing record at Bob (though better for CMAK).

[ParaBellum]

BigDuke, could you elaborate a bit on the role and workload of the 'battle creators'?

...and it would be nice to see some volunteers to serve in the Godless Commie Hordes.

I'd he honoured to serve in the ranks of the brave defenders of the Rodina to crush the Hitlerite adventurers.

[Acre]

Since this is my first post on this great forum i would like to say hello to all, and to show appriciation for all good read in last 2 years that this forum gave to me...

Im big fan of CMBB and ive been playing PBEM with couple of my friends for 3 years now... tried to play at blitz ladder but had some bad exp with that...

Im big fan of early war scenarios and i pretty much enjoy playing with russians(more of the challenge to me), but i dont mind playing some other side(PBEM-ed some good scenarios as hungarians...)

About this campaign of yours... For long time im searching for something to imploy my cmbb skills... if u need good russian player im in...

[GRUMLIN]

I'd love to play - ooperational level if possible. Better with axis kit than allied kit, but willing to try either...

Grumlin

[Sgabuzzino]

I would like to be a Godless Communist Barbarian. I haven't been one since I was 13, so it will be like a family reunion for me.

[Bigduke6]

Wow, the pledges keep coming in!

I am going to risk a note of optimism and say just maybe we can really pull this thing off!

Ok, I have reorganized the list so that we can see who would fit where in the campaign.

ADMINISTRATION (This is GMs and battle builders)

Bonxa - Assistant GM

Earl Gray (Would prefer to be a Kraut)

John Nash - Battle manufacturer

THE BEER-SWILLING KRAUT SIDE, A/K/A 4TH PANZERARMEE

Commander - Oberstgeneral Schoerner: ? (German CIC)

Maybe AdamL, maybe Grumlin...

Die Kampfkamaraden

Vergeltung

Earl Grey (or maybe Asst GM)

Stndrtnfhr

Moonfog

TDog

Baron von Beergut - Krauts first, then Commies

Grumlin? (Prefers operational)

AdamL? (Prefers operational)

VODKA-SWILLING COMMIES A/K/A THIRD GUARDS TANK ARMY

Commander - Generalpolkovnik Rybalko: ? (Soviet CIC)

JasonC expressed mild interest, time issues.

Tovarishchi po Boiu:

Parabellum

Sivodsi

Acre

Sgabuzzino - Available 4/5 months

Parker

cillmhor "not very experienced"

Parker

AdamL? (Prefers operational)

NO PREFERENCE EXPRESSED, MAKE UP YER MIND ALREADY!

Vergeltungswaffe -

Fizou -

PeterLorre86 - Either side

cargol -

USS Wyoming -

Michael Dorosh - "Small role"

Drescher - Head GM shamelessly biased in his favor

Ok, if every one were committed and really serious, I would rate this campaign as a go. As it is, I'm going to wait and see who else is going to drop in here.

This is not a members-only campaign, but if you are going to fight a battle in this campaign you need to know combined arms at the battalion level, and sometimes 2-battalion level.

I'm going to post a couple of job descriptions to answer Parabellum's question, and also to give people a better idea of what the administrative people - this is GMs and battle creators - are going to be up to.

Edit: To update the staff list

[ May 07, 2007, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ]

[Bigduke6]

Ok, Parabellum asked what the "battle builder" does. The first answer is that to some extent I am making this up as I go along, and so I realize I have pretty much used "battle builder" and "assistant GM" interchangably.

In general, my idea is to have a couple of senior GMs, whose main job is dealing with the players and forcing the players to give the GMs the information they need in the format they need, and by that same token they shoot down the goofy ideas every one knows players will come up with.

This guy needs to know the side he's GMing for thoroughly. He will work very closely with that side's commander translating operational concepts into movement on a map, and his understanding of how operational movement works, will trigger battles. These GMs are called the Senior GMs.

The assistant GM/battle builder is some one different.

The first job of the assistant GM in my concept, is to build battles. In some ways he's the most important person in the campaign, as building the battle is the hard part no one really wants to do. That's why John Nash is such a find for us, he wants a job like that. Since the way to keep the campaign moving is to keep cranking out the battles, the admin staff's first job is to get every one else to feed information to the battle maker, so the battle files get made efficiently.

My experience, if the battles come efficiently the players spend their time happily getting their soldiers killed off, rather than whining about rules interpetations or why nothing is happening.

So although this is a CM Meta-Campaign, from a practical standpoint it is more a group of people using the Internet to create and distribute CM battles files.

So how will that happen? Well, I'm working on a Campaign Rules (Ok, guidelines), and here's what it says about the Assistant GM:

Assistant GMs, either side -

These are the people responsible for the "mechanical" side of the CM battles that take place within the campaign. Their main work is battle creation, and tabulating battle results. Battle creation goes like this:

1) Receive instructions from either the Soviet or German GM, that a battle will take place using a particular map, with particular elements from the German and Soviet sides.

2) Receive the battle terrain file from me, or maybe from a data base.

3) Receive a list of the German units involved, and whatever limits there should be on the German set up, for instance an instruction to allow a German defensive set up in the south-west 1 x 1 square kilometer quadrant of the 2 x 2 kilometer map, or in road column moving through village "x", or similar.

4) If necessary, receives more detailed information from the German player involved.

5) Receives the same information from the Soviet GM.

6) Receives the same information, in necessary, from the Soviet player involved.

7) If possible, involves one of the two battle players in drawing up the battle. (More details in battle section)

8) Those parts a player cannot do, the Assistant GM does.

9) Once the battle is at end, the GM runs a ceasefire, tabulates results, and sends those results to each of the players, and both senior GMs, in the form of an AAR.

10) The assistant GM/battle creator can recommend additional losses be assessed to one or both of the sides participating in the battle due to special conditions, for instance, battle ends and an infantry force is overrun by an much more powerful armored force, making POWs in excess to the in battle losses possible.

Besides the battle-building function, the Assistant GM stands in for the German or Soviet GM as necessary.

Ok, while I'm on the subject, here's another EXPERIEMENTAL idea I want to try out. Since the goal is to reduce the work load on the person making the battle, and since the really irritating part is getting the units in the editor right, I am considering farming out part of that work to the players themselves.

Here's how it works:

1. Assistant GM gets told to create a battle on a particular mapsheet, and then receives the OBs of the forces involved.

2. He reads the OBs. He thinks for a bit. He decides which of the two OBs would be more of a pain to get right in the CM Scenario editor.

3. He then amends the .cme file with that player's set up zone, and tells him "YOU go through the editor and do the units."

4. This would of course allow the player an opportunity to cheat by fudging the units he sticks into the scenario, but it would be fairly easy to check what the player put in, against the OBs.

5. The Assistant GM makes the check. And then he goes into the editor to do the other side. Thus, the Assistant GM is editing into the scenario 1 or max 2 battalions, rather than 2 even 4. And neither player gets to see the other side's set up zones, or the units themselves.

Like I say it's an idea, we'll probably try it experimentally and if it works then we'll make it policy.

Point is, an overriding practical goal of the campaign has to be manufacturing CM battle files efficiently and quickly.

Stay tuned for the (Draft) write-up on the Senior GM, and the Side Commander!

[Parker]

Sounds cool! I'd like to play, on the Soviet side preferably.

[Bigduke6]

Here is the write up on the side commander job. As you can see, this is for some one who is really interested in the operational level and who knows his force cold, not just from a CM point of view, but from a historical point of view.

The OBs I have are pretty good, but they are not perfect. I expect the Senior Soviet player and the Senior German player to give feedback on the OBs I'm working with, so we can make them more realistic.

One other note, the "ME" referred to in the text is a "movement element", which is the basic unit that gets ordered around the operational map. A standard ME is one reinforced battalion.

Senior German and Soviet player -

One per side, obviously. He is responsible for deciding what operational moves his side will make during each time phase, creating written orders to that effect, and giving that information to his GMs. His focus is operational control of the side's MEs.

His second responsibility is giving tactical instructions to his subordinates, who are the players actually fighting the battles.

There are two other tools, aside from tactical instructions to his subordinates, and operational instructions in the form of orders to the MEs, that the senior commander has to influence the course of the campaign:

1) He has a limited number of smaller-than-ME formations, typically companies or small regiments, or artillery, that he can assign to a given ME. These are called operational reserves.

2) In even more limited circumstances, he can change "cross-attachment", i.e., the actual make-up of an ME.

The Senior German or Soviet player is allowed to fight battles himself at his discretion, but the

operational order job is his main responsibility.

Thus, the side commander will write a lot of e-mail messages, and spend most of his energy trying to get other people to do things. The slow typist and the shy personality need not apply. A jerk also need not apply, as this is after all a voluntary collection of hobbyists.

The senior commander's third responsibility is "leading" his side, meaning making sure all the players on his side are getting whatever information he as commander thinks they need, badgering players slow on doing their part of the battle process, substituting players if a battle stalls, and training his subordinates if he thinks that's necessary.

The senior commander's fourth responsibility is acting as the single liasion for complaints, discussions, suggestions, and opinions between tactical players, and the GMs. The senior player and the senior player only may complain to the GM why a ruling was wrong, or suggest alternatives. Obviously, if the GM says "shut up and deal with it" the senior commander does so.

However, the senior side commander is assumed to be well-read and GMs must at minimum consider his opinions on what is "realistic". The senior commander, within the framework of a private discussion with the GM, is well within his rights to prove a GM wrong, primarily with superior historical evidence.

This does not necessitate the GM agreeing with the side commander of course, as the GM can do whatever he wants, as long as it contributes to making the campaign simpler and/or more efficient.

The senior commander's fifth responsibility is to spot check to make sure players are not cheating, the most likely means being fudging on the ME data spread sheets the players will be updating. The senior commander checks his own side. In extreme cases, where he believes the opposition fudged, he can request a GM check the ME data spread sheet of an opponent.

The side commander, therefore, is the only player allowed to complain to GMs, argue rule interpetations with GMs, whine to GMs, and similar. Other players approaching GMs in such terms will be considered interfering with GM work, and if necessary kicked out of the campaign.

Simply put: The senior commander and only the senior commander works with the GM. The other players on his side do what GMs say. If players have a gripe, they gripe to their commander, not the GMs.

[Bigduke6]

And here is the job description of the head GM job:

German and Soviet Head GM -

This guy knows doctrine and standard organization thoroughly. His main job is making sure his side of the battles, and operational efforts, are kosher with his knowledge. If a German/Soviet player tries something goofy he vetoes it. He enforces Wehrmacht/Red Army discipline.

In terms of role-playing, the head German GM is the Oberkommando des Wehrmachts, and also German units subordinate to ME commanders, i.e company COs and attached formation COs.

In terms of role-playing, the head Soviet GM is Stavka and Marshal Konev, as well as Soviet units subordinate to ME commanders, i.e company COs and attached formation COs.

The most important regular work the German GM does in the campaign is that he together with the Soviet GM reads the movement orders from the senior players, and works out the following for each battle:

a) Where the battle takes place

What forces - specifically MEs - participate in the battle

c) Under what conditions (suprised, prepared, defending, attacking, etc.) the battle takes place.

If necessary, prior to a battle, the head GM decides what changes to the order of battle (OB) should take place for a battle, for instance, if reserves arrive at a certain point of if only part of a unit is present.

In most cases, the head GM will work to fit battles to existing terrain, as that will allow use of pre-drawn maps. If this means the battle location shifts a bit, that is acceptable and the head GM’s decision, after consultation with his counterpart.

In extreme circumstances the head GM can suggest an extension or reduction of an existing map, or in a worse case the creation of an entirely new map. This is a last resort.

The head GM works primarily with the senior side commander. However, the German GM has every right to give any one on either side any instructions, if and when he sees fit. The same goes for the Senior Soviet GM, but for the Soviet side.

Either head GM may, if he chooses, assist in battle creation. But in an ideal world at least, that is not his first job. The head GM’s primary job is working with a side commander to get operational information translated into data that allows CM battles to be created quickly and efficiently.

The head GM may, in the post-battle phase, if he chooses assess additional losses to German units due to operational conditions outside the CM battle. This could include losses to overrun, encirclement, or combat units striking support units like an artillery formation.

If the senior GMs disagree, they lay out their case to me.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Bigduke6]

Understood. You up to commanding the Germans, even if some one like Jason has the Soviets?

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I figured with the numbers that I would need to play Soviet, but since its evened out, I think I'll go Kraut.

[PeterLorre86]

Pressed to "MAKE UP [ME] MIND ALREADY!" I would choose german, as i am more experienced with them. However if you need someone to balance out the teams, i am willing to be soviet.

[bitchen frizzy]

Could you answer some stoopid questions to help vacillating fence-riders make their minds up?

How would this be done - PBEM, or TCP? What does the suggested pace work out to in turns/day, approximately?

Would the software be the game only, or do you have some sort of download add-on in mind?

[Drescher]

Well, I would like to be part of the glorious Red Army and as stated already, in command of a combat unit.

Btw nice ruleset, Bigduke, sounds good to me, though I dont have any experience with such meta.campaings.

But my guess is, it will all depend on the characters and their dedication to this project.

So far Im really interested, even fascinated. Lets get this thing rolling, comrades and kameraden :cool:

[cargol]

I will go Axis all the way.....Till Moscow

[Bigduke6]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Wow, the pledges keep coming in!

I am going to risk a note of optimism and say just maybe we can really pull this thing off!

Ok, I have reorganized the list so that we can see who would fit where in the campaign.

ADMINISTRATION (This is GMs and battle builders)

Bonxa - Assistant GM

Earl Gray (Would prefer to be a Kraut)

John Nash - Battle manufacturer

THE BEER-SWILLING KRAUT SIDE, A/K/A 4TH PANZERARMEE

Commander - Oberstgeneral Schoerner: ? (German CIC)

Maybe AdamL, maybe Grumlin...

Die Kampfkamaraden

Vergeltung

Earl Grey (or maybe Asst GM)

Stndrtnfhr

Moonfog

TDog

Baron von Beergut - Krauts first, then Commies

Grumlin? (Prefers operational)

AdamL? (Prefers operational)

Cargol

Vergeltungswaffe

PeterLorre86

VODKA-SWILLING COMMIES A/K/A THIRD GUARDS TANK ARMY

Commander - Generalpolkovnik Rybalko: ? (Soviet CIC)

JasonC expressed mild interest, time issues.

Tovarishchi po Boiu:

Parabellum

Sivodsi

Acre

Sgabuzzino - Available 4/5 months

Parker

cillmhor "not very experienced"

Parker

AdamL? (Prefers operational)

Drescher - Head GM biased in his favor

NO PREFERENCE EXPRESSED, MAKE UP YER MIND ALREADY!

Fizou -

USS Wyoming -

Michael Dorosh - "Small role"

Ok, if every one were committed and really serious, I would rate this campaign as a go. As it is, I'm going to wait and see who else is going to drop in here.

This is not a members-only campaign, but if you are going to fight a battle in this campaign you need to know combined arms at the battalion level, and sometimes 2-battalion level.

I'm going to post a couple of job descriptions to answer Parabellum's question, and also to give people a better idea of what the administrative people - this is GMs and battle creators - are going to be up to.

Edit: To update the staff list

[Bigduke6]

Ah, stoopid questions, my favorite kind...

Ok, the plan is players have to work their way through a 60-turn battles in two months. So that's 1 turn a day, 3 e-mail exchanges, although some battles aren't going to last the 60 turns. 45 usually will do it, on a 2 x 2 map, especially in this sector where units can get pretty close to one another before the get LOS.

So git off the throne and into uniform, the Fatherland/Motherland needs you!

[Bigduke6]

Wow, the pledges keep coming in!

I am going to risk a note of optimism and say just maybe we can really pull this thing off!

Ok, I have reorganized the list so that we can see who would fit where in the campaign.

ADMINISTRATION (This is GMs and battle builders)

Bonxa - Assistant GM

Earl Gray (Would prefer to be a Kraut)

John Nash - Battle manufacturer

THE BEER-SWILLING KRAUT SIDE, A/K/A 4TH PANZERARMEE

Commander - Oberstgeneral Schoerner: ? (German CIC)

Maybe AdamL, maybe Grumlin...

Die Kampfkamaraden

Vergeltung

Earl Grey (or maybe Asst GM)

Stndrtnfhr

Moonfog

TDog

Baron von Beergut - Krauts first, then Commies

Grumlin? (Prefers operational)

AdamL? (Prefers operational)

Cargol

Vergeltungswaffe

PeterLorre86

Michael Dorosh - "Small role"

VODKA-SWILLING COMMIES A/K/A THIRD GUARDS TANK ARMY

Commander - Generalpolkovnik Rybalko: ? (Soviet CIC)

JasonC expressed mild interest, time issues.

Tovarishchi po Boiu:

Parabellum

Sivodsi

Acre

Sgabuzzino - Available 4/5 months

Parker

cillmhor "not very experienced"

Parker

AdamL? (Prefers operational)

Drescher - Head GM biased in his favor

bitchen frizzy

NO PREFERENCE EXPRESSED, MAKE UP YER MIND ALREADY!

Fizou -

USS Wyoming -

Edit: To update the staff list

[ May 07, 2007, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ]

[bitchen frizzy]

No problem!

I'll play a field commander for whichever side you need another person.

[Bigduke6]

Drescher,

You're dead on, the key thing in something like this is the people. You can make rules all you want, but if the people won't participate the campaign isn't going anywhere.

[Michael Dorosh]

BD6 - put me on the German side if possible, bitte...since you're so insistent I decide!

[Acre]

Wow u guys are fast... keep up a good work!Really looking forward to this! can u say what is expected from us on bottom of command chain? playing scenarios made by officers and editing some sheets comes to my mind... anything else?

[General Jack Ripper]

Hello, I have been reading up on what you are trying to do here, and I would like to volunteer.

Unfourtunately I have no experience playing CM multiplayer, except for tcp/ip. I don't really have a preferance on what I'd like to do. I am good with the Germans, but I am a little unsure about the scale. I am not so good running a whole battalion, I can handle a reinforced company just fine. If there is something I can do in that regard, that would be fine.

I also GM a homemade military strategy game and I can keep track of OOB's just fine. I would also try to be assistant GM if you need it. Not sure how good I'd be, but I'm willing to step up and give it my best shot!

In short: I'm interested, but I don't know what I could do effectively.