Thinking of putting together a Meta-campaign - Any one interested?

[Bigduke6]

Hi there CMBB fans!

As you can see from the thread title, I'm thinking of putting together a Meta-campaign, but to make it happen I need help. Maybe yours.

This thread is so I can see generally if enough people are interested, and more specifically in what terms.

So if you read this and are interested, or have questions, please post in this thread or contact me by the e-mail: stefankorshak@yahoo.com

WHAT'S THE HISTORICAL BACKGROUND?

The Battle of Lauben, which was an armor-heavy action taking place in Lower Silesia in early March 1945.

The Germans fielded the rough equivalent of a Panzerkorps, the Soviets something between 1-2 Tank Corps. The Soviets had a very mobile force, fully motorized/mechanized. The Germans had a mixed force. Both sides had LOTS of funky late-war equipment.

Combat lasted 2 or 4 days, depending on how you count. Weather mostly sucked but there was some air from both sides. The Germans won.

WHAT'S THE CAMPAIGN SCALE?

10 or so players on each side, plus at least one senior commander for each side. Each player commands the rough equivalent of a reinforced battalion. OBs are fairly accurate but there would be some tweaking for simplicity.

The campaign area is 16 km. in height by 26 km. in width.

Time-wise I figure 5 day "phases" and 1 night "phase" per 24-hour cycle. During each phase there are CM battles lasting from 30 - 60 turns.

What force goes into a battle depends on player operational plans, and previous losses from the starting OB.

I would hope to get through one 24-hour period every three real-life months; faster if the players fight the battles faster.

WHAT ARE THE CAMPAIGN GOALS?

Basically, to fight out the campaign using a good replication of the actual ground and the forces involved, just to see what happens.

Therefore, no victory points per se, no battlefield flags - just directives to the senior commander from the GM, which the senior commander translates to directives to his underlings.

Ideally, when the campaign is over, every one argues about who REALLY won.

CAMPAIGN LIMITATIONS/FUDGE FACTORS

I want to use a minimal rule set with a maximum "it happened that way because the GM said so, and he knows better than you" to decide operational movement and intelligence.

Some form of limit to cross-attachment, and stacking penalties, to keep battle scale out of the gigantic range.

At times shift of battle location 1 km or so, to fit into an already-prepared battle map.

CM point values are out the window; what you get is what the campaign says you should get, minus whatever losses.

Some dependance on payers for book-keeping, so as to reduce work-load on GMs, and so players involved need to be honest.

WHAT CAN BIGDUKE6 BRING TO THE TABLE?

I have every CM battle map (but three) already drawn, and they are pretty durn accurate. Several are friggen' gorgeous if I do say so myself.

That is close to 100 battle maps ready to go.

I have fairly accurate OBs for both sides, and am pretty familiar with both sides' operational policies.

Since I write fast, as senior GM I can crank out plenty of "orders from higher" and intelligence.

WHAT PEOPLE DOES THE CAMPAIGN NEED?

1) A German head GM. He has to know German doctrine and standard organization well.

His main job is making sure the German side of the battles, and German operational efforts, are kosher with his knowledge. This means if a German player tries something goofy he vetoes it. Enforce Wehrmacht discipline.

Equally important, this guy needs to have time to devote to e-mails with the Soviet GM and me, to hash out where battles occur and in what force.

2) A Soviet head GM who does the same thing as the German GM, but for the Soviet side.

It should be clear the top Soviet and German GMs need to know their stuff, and be mature enough to work out disagreements.

3) At least two Assistant GM/battle creator types to set up the battles and help out. As noted the battle maps exist.

I have a cunning plan for involving players in battle creation, but even if it functions "battle creators" are needed so the campaign doesn't bog down waiting for the next battle to get drawn up.

4) Ideally, some kind of forum or web page where access can be controlled, so every one can post stuff about the campaign in the same place.

I'm not willing to buy a web page myself.

5) Minimum 10 German players, plus a commander.

The standard player needs to be able to fight a reinforced-battalion sized battle, follow instructions from the German commander, and not be a gamey jerk. You don't need to be Walpurgisnacht, but you have familiar enough with the CM engine to exploit the basic advantages of late-war German troops.

This minimum number assumes about one in three players will drop out at some point. The way I figure it, probably 5-6 battle will go on at any one time, maximim.

By that same token, I expect that something like one out of three persons saying they want to play, in fact won't. Thus, the German side could start out with 15 - 20 players, were there that much interest.

6) Something like 10 Soviet players plus at least a Soviet commander. Mirror image of Germans, basically.

Questions? Comments?

Like I say, this is just an idea, I'm testing the water, no promises that the campaign will ever come off.

[Sgabuzzino]

I am interested, as a regular player. But, I have only 4/5 months to spare at the moment.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I'd be interested as one of the players. I'm a big fan of longer battles, so this sounds better than the typical 25-30 turn games.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Vergeltung]

Originally posted by Vergeltungswaffe:

I'd be interested as one of the players. I'm a big fan of longer battles, so this sounds better than the typical 25-30 turn games.

I'm in. Even if just to make our two names real confusing and stuff.

[Bigduke6]

Great, keep those pledges coming!

[Bonxa]

I'd like to help out with the assistant GM stuff! Can't wait to see you all making a mess of your troops.

[ParaBellum]

I like the idea, especially about the minimal ruleset and the dictatorial powers of the GMs. It's only too easy for these meta campaigns to bog down in endless discussions about minute details. Count me in as a player, no side preferences.

[Earl Grey]

Sounds great! Count me in on the German side! Whatever the job, I take it...

What exactly does a 'battle creator' do? Maybe I can help with that, 'cause I'd LOVE to see that campaign going off for sure!

[Sgabuzzino]

Do you have some weblinks about this battle? I can't find any.

[Bigduke6]

Sgabuzzino,

It's pretty a pretty obscure battle, which is kinda surprising considering its size and all the tanks. I guess one of the reasons is that this was a Wehrmacht action, and the "cool" S.S. attacked at Lake Balaton at the same time, and so got most of the historical attention.

Here is a linkie for a pretty one-sided write-up in German:

http://www.mtm-versand.de/dmz/Leseproben/lauben/leseprobe.htm

And here's a better write-up in Hungarian:

http://panzerkeil.dre.hu/egyeb/egyeb.htm

(I have an English translation in Word Format, if any one wants a copy send me an e-mail.)

The best single source of information I have found found is on the Axis.History.Net in the Forgotten Battles or Let's Build a Battle threads; I just checked and I can't dredge it up. Maybe some one else can.

I have a pretty detailed write-up of the campaign background which I will inflict on all concerned if this gets off the ground.

But for this thread, suffice it to say that the Germans decided to take a shot at hurting a Red spearhead, and also clearing an important rail line, near a place called Lauben, which now is Luban Poland. The attack was made by 4th Panzerarmee, but it was very weak, the strongest unit was at 40 per cent strength, and most were in the 10 - 30 per cent range.

Big-name German units involved include Divisions 8th Panzer, 16th Panzer, 17th Panzer, Fueher Panzer Grenadier, Fuerherbegleit, and 6th Volksgrenadier. Dorosh might be along to point out the two Fuehrer units were quite ueber and part of the Grossdeutschland Korps. Also there was 103rd Panzer Brigade, which eventually got folded into Muenchburg Divisison.

Each of these elements was very roughly at regiment strength, and they didn't all fight at the same time. Besides the bigger elements, All sorts of cool Kraut units like schwere panzerabteilungen, remains of smashed line regiments, kids with panzerfausts (really!) some S.S. police pressed into service, and Vlasovite Russians at the end of their rope.

I won't even tell you about the vehicle types - lots of variety! Overall commander was Schoener.

The Soviets were 3rd Guards Tank Army, consisting of 6th and 7th Guards Tank Corps, 9th Mech Corps, and the full cornucopia of Soviet army-level support elements, including Spetsnaz, independent tank regiments, special engineer formations, Central Asian construction units, a penal battalion, and three of those dumb little recon biplanes for the generals to fly around in. And of course TONS of Studebaker trucks. The Soviets similarly were at around 30 per cent strength. Overall commander was Rybalko.

What happened was the Germans kicked off their attack on March 2 and made steady progress, in part because the Soviets weren't ready and in part because the Soviets played for time. Then Soviet reserves came up, the Germans pushed some more and got hit back hard, some minor encirclements happened, and basically the Germans called off the general attack while they were still ahead.

According to Goebbels the Germans shot up more than 300 Soviet tanks, although I personally have my doubts on the number. In any case it was the last panzer success of the Wehrmacht. Stalin was pissed.

[Bigduke6]

Earl Gray,

A battle creator takes the following information:

German force the GMs decide is at the battle

Soviet force the GMS decide is at the battle

And he plugs it into an existing .cme file. In some cases, he may have to modify the file to include or not include ground, as each of the files I have is a 2km x 2km. square. In some case the terrain will need modification, like if a town really gets trashed.

However, an interesting aspect this campaign is that the region is densely populated and few forces will have near enough HE to level every building on an average map. There are lots of towns that run along a road for a kilometer or more: just like in real life.

"Plugging in" includes the set-up zones, meaning the battle creator has to figure out that if the GMs say "this battle occured when this unit suprised that unit", the battle creator figures out how the set-up zones reflect that. Then he hands off the file to the players who fight the battle.

So the main job is to go into the scenario design function of CMBB and get the units and set-up zones right.

[Earl Grey]

thanks for the info, sounds interesting... Does a battle creator play actual battles, then? Because I'd definitely like to take an active part in this!

Anyway, it's a very cool idea and would be a waste to let it pass!

[Bigduke6]

Earl Grey,

Well, that's experimental.

One of the things I would like to try and do would be to involve the players in creating the battles, meaning they update their excel spreadsheets for casualties, figure out where the set up zones should be, etc. The idea is the players have lots of input on creating the battles, and do a goodly amount of the legwork, so the GMs can make the decisions and check the work.

For instance, if there is a big battle and the Soviets have more troops, why not let the Soviet player go through the CM scenario design engine and make sure he gets the right number of squads, tanks etc? The opportunity for cheating is there but the GM will exist to check it. And the logic is that more time the players spend futzing with their units, the more time the GMs have to make decisions on how stuff goes.

Like I say, it's an idea, and I don't know if it could be pulled off. I've been involved in a Meta campaign or three and a common problem is how to get GM time used efficiently. So the general idea of the admin side of the campaign is "top priority is to keep the GMs away from the routine nitpick work."

Players are welcome too. We need about 20 interested people to make this work, so we shall see if there is enough interest out there. A limiter is that this is a pretty historically accurate campaign, so an irresponsible player more interested in goofing around than playing his part can really screw things up.

In any case, tell your friends. So far we don't have near enough warm bodies, but we've got some time yet.

[Fizou]

Im also interested.

[Stndrtnfhr]

Bigduke6,

Count me in as a German player.

Stndrtnfhr Out!

[PeterLorre86]

I am interested as a player for either side.

[Bigduke6]

Well that's pretty good turn out for a couple of days up on the forum. Already we could staff out one of the sides, and give them their GM.

Here's the list so far (sorry if I missed some one)

Sgabuzzino

Vergeltungswaffe

AdamL

Vergeltung

Bonxa

ParaBellum

Earl Grey

Fizou

Stndrtnfhr

PeterLorre86

Keep those cards and letters coming!

[Moonfog]

Sounds cool. I'm interested as german player.

[Sgabuzzino]

Thanks for the article.

Are there any good articles on tactics of the time, so we can try and get into the mind of a Russian commander in 1945, or German?

Also, does anybody want to play some practise scenarios from around that time? I'll post in the opponent finder forum to not clutter up this thread anymore.

[JasonC]

As a little Russian side background, Rybalko was one of the most experienced high level mech commanders in the Russian army. He had a thorough pre-war academic training in Russia's military schools, unlike many wartime commanders (since many of his classmates did not make it through the purges). (Cavalry experience in the civil war may have helped there - Stalin favored that set of early Red army veterans, and cavalrymen in particular).

He was the deputy commander of 5th Tank Army (leader of the northern drive) during Uranus aka Stalingrad counteroffensive. By the time of the 3rd battle of Kharkov aka Manstein's counterattack, he had his own command, 3rd Tank Army. Which became 3rd Guards Tank later in 1943, and was the eastern face reserve force in Kutuzov aka the Orel offensive. He drove to Orel from the east, the hardest portion of that fight (though not the most successful it must be said). He then commanded it through the Ukraine fighting, and notably led it to an important win during the southern support for Bagration. In addition to this late war fight in Silesia he led it to Prague at the very end of the war. After it, he became commander of all Russian mech forces.

Overall his record is impressive. It is notably aggressive and his few periods of imperfect success generally involve smashing too aggressively into too-prepared German defenses(early in operations), or getting logistically overextended and being forced onto the defensive because of it (late). Though he regularly switches points of attack to find weak seams, and his defensive fighting when called for was generally successful.

His force would have a significant portion of very experienced officers and men by this point, though losses and replacements of course would prevent them from all being crack.

[JasonC]

P.S. - I'd volunteer for Russian side operational command if I thought I would have the time to do it right. (I am a bit daunted by the proposed scale frankly, but wish the attempt all possible success).

I'm interested in consulting whoever does take that role, if they are willing, and I might be able to help out in battle set up from time to time.

[Earl Grey]

Hey, that's soemthing. Now I sense something rollin' here...

Well, if we actually manage to pull this off, I definitely need to do a few mods for the campaign!

[Bigduke6]

Well if I can get the vaunted JasonC sniffing around then maybe we have a chance. He would be an excellent Soviet commander.

For the record I was a Soviet commander in one of Jason's campaigns, and he kept things moving, which is not common in a Meta campaign.

I'm well aware the scale could stop this campaign cold. Since I am not Jason, I'm not capable of that level of work, my hope is to attract enough "admin" people to this thing to keep the campaign moving. We'll see.

Jason, if things get to the point where it looks like the Soviet overall commander can just give orders and the campaign runs itself, then I'll definately try and recruit you. But right now we are in "see-if-this-is-possible" mode.

[Bigduke6]

Rybalko was a really interesting guy. He was severely injured during the Civil War, horse fall among other things, and he physically never recovered. At times he walked with a cane, and apparently was on pain-killers much of the time.

He looks like your typical chunky Soviet mech general, but his contemporaries describe him as a real professional who knew mech operations inside and out, went out of his way to teach, and despite his sicknesses drove himself as hard as any one in his command. Supposedly his thick neck and puffy face are from the drugs he was taking. Don't know if he drank.

According to contemporaries Rybalko certainly was capable of foul language on occasion, but he was no Zhukov - he was no fan of frontal assaults, he didn't browbeat subordinates, Rybalko was the guy always looking to charge into the German rear area. Cavalry mindset, I guess. Nevertheless he apparently was no Custer; one of the things one reads in the German accounts is how 3rd Guards Tank Army covers ground and manuevers "like a Wehrmacht formation" or is cited as proof "that the Reds had learned their lessons from us well."

The Soviets commanders of course argued they learned maneuver warfare at the Frunze academy, not at the hands of the Germans.

Anyway, tons of people have heard of Gudarian and Manstein and Patton and Rommel, but Rybalko is pretty much unknown in the West, yet by 3rd Guard Tank's achievements he is at least comparable.

Part of the reason I guess is Rybalko never wrote memoirs, he died something like 4-5 years after the war ended.

As to 3rd Guards Tank Army, I have a unit OB accurate down to battalion, all major weapon types identified, and just for the heck of it most maneuver force commanders identified down to brigade. Not particularly useful information I know but it really ups the trivia/grog quotient.