Soviet Forces in CMBB

[Crank_GS]

I have played CMBO since I got it in July 2000. In that time, I experienced frustration with utilizing the US forces with their fragile armor. I have since learned to use these forces pretty well. To the point where I only the US in the vast majority of the games I play. I have learned to effectively employ those US forces.

Now I received CMBB about two months ago. I figurd that the Soviet forces would be tougher than the US ones. Now, I know that the characteristics of the infantry have changed, making them less likely to be supermen, and artillery is not quite so effective in CMBB. But what drives me nuts is that Soviet armor, while certainly tougher than US armor, is clumsy, slow to respond and very unweildy. Is this what you guys find too? It seems that I barely peek out from behind a hill and all the German tanks poke hole after hole in my tanks, whether they are T-34s, IS-2s or ISU-152s. What is the secret?

[flamingknives]

Realising that a T34 is approximately equal to an M4 Sherman.

The IS-2 is no tougher than an M26 and has a slower rate of fire.

For the most part, soviet armour isn't really geared for tank vs. tank engagements.

[stikkypixie]

There real thing i find annoying is there lack of accuracy, i mean the IS2 well capable of taking out an panther or a tiger at range (in my CMBB experience at least) but it has to hit the damn things first :mad: The only thing i could come up with is using in them in large numbers together.

[Bone_Vulture]

Well gee, there's a reason why Germans have a smaller armor purchase cap than the Russkies.

[Dave H]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Realising that a T34 is approximately equal to an M4 Sherman.

The IS-2 is no tougher than an M26 and has a slower rate of fire.

It's worth remembering that the Red Army was fielding T-34s when the most advanced American tank was the M-3, and the British were still using Matildas. The IS-2 was also in combat long before the first Pershing made it to Europe.

For the most part, soviet armour isn't really geared for tank vs. tank engagements.

In the early fighting on the Eastern Front, the KV-1 and the T-34 totally outclass the German armor.

Like most American and British armor, the Soviet tanks were usually adequate for tank vs. tank, but were really designed for combined arms attacks versus infantry. In armor battles, the quantity of Soviet tanks and tank destroyers (SU-76, SU-85, SU-100) made up for most individual shortcomings. Both fronts saw attrition eventually tilt the armor balance to the Allies.

[flamingknives]

As soon as the Germans start using the 75L48 in any quantity, the comparison to US armour is valid as it is of comparable quality.

Like most American and British armor, the Soviet tanks were usually adequate for tank vs. tank, but were really designed for combined arms attacks versus infantry.

Possibly the US tanks, with their tanks and tank destroyers, but the British design philosophy was very much for tank vs. tank, hence good AP guns with high velocity and rate of fire.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Crank_GS:

But what drives me nuts is that Soviet armor, while certainly tougher than US armor, is clumsy, slow to respond and very unweildy. Is this what you guys find too?

it's my impression as well. i wonder if anyone has made any tests regarding all this?

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by stikkypixie:

There real thing i find annoying is there lack of accuracy, i mean the IS2 well capable of taking out an panther or a tiger at range (in my CMBB experience at least) but it has to hit the damn things first :mad:

IS2 has unreal ability to miss stationary targets even on a 100-200 meter range. perhaps it's only imaginary as i haven't made any tests, but i doubt it.

[MikeyD]

If you want renewed respect for the poor Sherman, stick to fighting with 2-man turret T34s for awhile then purchase a couple Lend-Lease 75mm gun Shermans to play with. The Sherman practically assumes übertank status by comparison!

All of your troubles with the T-34 has to do with that darned gunner/commander combo in the 2-man turret. Its a pain but its historically accurate. And CMBB does bend over backwards in a effort to attain historical accuracy.

Things do get appreciably better for the Russians by 1945. 85mm hole-punchers and 3-man turrets. Crack Guards infantry. And they find themselves facng depleted Volksturm home-guard forces. Can you say 'steamroller"?

[SKELLEN]

Originally posted by Crank_GS:

It seems that I barely peek out from behind a hill and all the German tanks poke hole after hole in my tanks, whether they are T-34s, IS-2s or ISU-152s. What is the secret?

Don't get downhearted Crank_GS and perservere, as I have only had CMBB for just over a month myself and know how it feels.

I'm currently playing a scenario in CMBB and by using a Green KV-1 have managed to knock out 3 Panzer 3's & Light Tank, and I achieved this simply by using a small slope for cover and the Shoot & Scoot command.

Use the terrain to your full advantage and if need be use another tank you are prepared to sacrifice to distract any German armour aiming for you, and then pop out for a shot and reverse back or use Shoot & Scoot if you prefer.

The solution is always there, either by using the terrain to your full advantage, smoke screen if possible, sacrificing lesser tanks to give you that crucial shot that eludes you or by buttoning your opponents tanks with Mortar or Artillery, which will also give you a slight advantage.

I don't for one minute claim to know much about CMBB, but from my experience so far in the scenario I am playing these are some of the things that have worked for me, but you will obviously find others that will also work for you along the way.

Remember, if I can knock out 4 tanks with a Green

KV-1, then I'm sure you or others can accomplish the same - it can and does work, but you have to stick with it.

[V]

Originally posted by SKELLEN:

I'm currently playing a scenario in CMBB and by using a Green KV-1 have managed to knock out 3 Panzer 3's & Light Tank, and I achieved this simply by using a small slope for cover and the Shoot & Scoot command.

Can I ask the name of that scenario?

[Joachim]

Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SKELLEN:

I'm currently playing a scenario in CMBB and by using a Green KV-1 have managed to knock out 3 Panzer 3's & Light Tank, and I achieved this simply by using a small slope for cover and the Shoot & Scoot command.

Can I ask the name of that scenario? </font>

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Joachim:

Worthy of note:

Soviet early war tanks do not have radios.

Except for KV series. This makes them very effective in comparison to other Soviet tanks.

[Redwolf]

The key for the T-34s is their speed.

The Shermans (before HVSS which are freakin' expensive) are very slow on mixed ground, the T-34s are extremly fast in difficult ground. That's what you need to exploit.

As for command delays, well, if somebody thinks 180 seconds delay to implement an order to drive up a road with a few curves far from contact...

[SKELLEN]

[/qb]

[MikeyD]

Quote:

"It seems that I barely peek out from behind a hill..."

I'm remided of that old Henny Youngman joke -

I went to the doctor. I raised my arm and told him "It hurts when I do this". His response. 'Then don't do that!"

[1stUkrainianFront]

Comrades --

I would like to pursue Cap'n Crank's question a little more. I've been pretty darn demoralized trying to get any kind of success with the Soviet tanks vs. the Germans in quite a range of scenarios. Just for example Prokhorovka: Finale or Panzer Blitz Situation 7: Relief of Kiev.

I'd be very interested in a fairly detailed discussion of what does and doesn't work with the Soviet tanks.

1) When I bunch them up with 4-6 tanks in a small area (small LOS footprint) and try to treat multiple Soviet tanks as if they were a single German or US tank, they still can't hit and that just concentrates the targets for the Huns.

2) When I spread the Soviet AFV's out in a loose formation with depth to it to try to get surprise side shots, the Germans can plow gently forward in a tight formation and overwhelm each in turn.

3) When I charge with a massed wall of T-34's, the casualties are horrendous. Sure, sometimes it works and the T's can overwhelm the Panzers, but that's maybe one time out of 5 or 6. This tactic works very well when visibility is limited (i.e. Royal Opponent scenario) and extremely poorly when there is any kind of bog risk in open terrain.

I'm stationed out in Kiev these days and running all around Ukraine, so I know the Red Army figured out how to use their tanks successfully or they wouldn't have been able to liberate this place. But what did they do? More specifically, how *exactly* can one employ the Soviet armor in CMBB to have some reasonable chance of success?

By the way there are amazing, poignant memorials to all the people lost in the war in every Ukrainian village we visit. And very often there's a real T-34/SU-85/ISU-152 up on a pedestal in the village squares, fresh flowers regularly laid in front of the people's names and sometimes wreaths around the tank barrels.

Regards

[Andreas]

Originally posted by 1stUkrainianFront:

I'm stationed out in Kiev these days and running all around Ukraine, so I know the Red Army figured out how to use their tanks successfully or they wouldn't have been able to liberate this place. But what did they do? More specifically, how *exactly* can one employ the Soviet armor in CMBB to have some reasonable chance of success?

I believe that you are looking at a problem with the competitive nature of QBs, and probably with scenarios you may have been playing. When German and Soviet tank forces met head on, and brought comparable numbers to the fight, that was bad news for the Soviets. Ideally, the aim for the Soviet tanks was to not fight German tanks at all (leave these to AT guns), but instead attack German infantry, achieve a breakthrough, and then defeat the German formations operationally. All of which will not help you with your games, I am afraid.

One way of applying this is to use AT guns in your force mix, to create a secure base of fire onto which you can fall back. Against anything but Tigers, Soviet ATGs are very good weapons, if used from a flanking position. Even the venerable 45mm ATG in its 1942 incarnation, with tungsten rounds, is quite a problem for the Germans.

Originally posted by 1stUkrainianFront:

By the way there are amazing, poignant memorials to all the people lost in the war in every Ukrainian village we visit. And very often there's a real T-34/SU-85/ISU-152 up on a pedestal in the village squares, fresh flowers regularly laid in front of the people's names and sometimes wreaths around the tank barrels.

Regards

Thanks for posting this - very interesting, and I am very jealous.

[Tuomio]

Hordes of t-32:s shine when they are kept at supporting the infarantry. They have craploads of HE and 3 tanks blasting away at frontline fortifications spells disaster for the defender. Because usually defender is in passive mode and waits you to enter traps, you can chew away its forces bit by bit without exposing your troops much. When the defender realizes this, the morale couldve dropped quite a bit and he has couple of dangerous holes in the frontlines. This spells eventually victory. Also the su-100 infarantry support tanks are wonderful at blasting the trenchlines to pieces. Just keep the enemy tanks out of LOS and you do just fine.

Bigger problem is, if the few German tanks have overwatch and there isnt sufficent cover from them. Always have artillery unit(s) that can lay smokescreen and i even buy couple of 81 mortars, they are invaluable in gun elimination and laying emergency smokes.

For antitank roles use the cheap AT-guns and leapfrog with them to the flanks. Only hinder is the 2 minute setup time, which means you must walk them to the final position in cover, so he cant area fire your arse accurately. Atleast you force the enemy tanks to worse firing positions if nothing else.

Whats even better with the t-32 HE loadout is, that you can barrage probable enemy gun positions with direct fire without need to save ammo.

[1stUkrainianFront]

Tuomio --

Your point is clear for scenarios with mixed orders of battle, i.e. mixed inf/tanks/guns.

But as the Soviets, how would you approach a battle which is largely tank vs. tank such as Prokhorovka: Finale (Soviets have approx. 60 T-34's + 10 T-70's + 8 SU-122's vs. Germans with approx. 16 Pz III's, 8 Pz II's, 8 PzIVG's, 4 Marders, 6 Tigers). No inf. or arty on either side and terrain is gently rolling hills with a couple of roads & villages.

Not asking for specific scenario suggestions, rather guidelines for tactical employment of the Soviet armor in this type of terrain vs. this type of opponent.

Also as the Soviets, how would you approach a battle such as Panzer Blitz Situation 7. Soviets have approx. 20 T-34's, 4 Kv-85's, 4 ISU-152's and some weak inf. & trucks vs. Germans with 5 Panthers, 6 Pz IV's, 4 StugIII's and some weak inf. Terrain includes ravines, multiple hills & woods, and roads. Snow present. Off-road movement has reasonable chance to cause bog.

Again looking for guidelines on how to approach this kind of encounter with Soviet armor.

1stUkrainianFront