Andreas Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Originally posted by Sergei: You mean they have a sense of humour about anything? Germans? A sense of humour? Nevah! Seriously, do these guys look like they are having fun? We all know it is not much fun in Stalingrad. One of them has not slept since 1945. We are all glad England won the World Cup in '66 though, Mein Dickie Old Chum. [ May 14, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Originally posted by van ston: i am 50% dutch 40% english 10%austrian good huh? That depends. If you're 50% Dutch cheese maker, 40% English humourist and 10% Austrian skier then you're laughing. But if you're 50% Dutch skier, 40% English cheese maker and 10% Austrian humourist then you have my sympathy. Now, having simultaneously offended three nationalities, I shall withdraw quietly to the corner and wait. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Well I'm Australian Mate. No bloody Dutch here but it does mean I've got a boomerang up me backside. If it wasn't for our SAS in Afghanistan and Iraq I think most of the bloody world would be surprised we still have an army. God knows I am. As for the Dutch, well the German High Command "requisitioned" their factories and forced the workers to produce material for the "war effort". I viewed a program about 12 months ago demonstrating the resistance the Dutch put up to the oppression and how close the German District Kommander came to extreme measures in the face of blatant sabotage. Thankfully, for the Dutch he wasn't insane but the "aggitation" persisted until liberation. The Dutch did the best they could without bringing the full wrath of the Nazis upon the population. After all, how many Nazis do you see wearing clogs and having mayonaise on their chips? "You get a lot further with a gun and a smile than you do with just a gun" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Originally posted by William amos: The Single Biggest contribution that the Dutch gave to the allied caused happened AFTER they surrendered to Germany. And while the Dutch Resistance was good dont mean them either. The Dutch Merchant Marine was the 4th Largest in the world in 1940. Most escaped NOT to England but overseas to Canada and the US. It was alot of Dutch Merchant Captains that crossed the Atlantic to bring suppies to the War. Ah, that's what CMAK needs: Dutch Merchant Ships. If they're not included, let's stage a boycott or somefink. More seriously, if the Dutch Merchant Marine was #4 in 1940 and the US and UK were #1 & 2 (in whichever order), then who was #3? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Originally posted by CombinedArms: More seriously, if the Dutch Merchant Marine was #4 in 1940 and the US and UK were #1 & 2 (in whichever order), then who was #3? Norway? Sweden? Some Scandinavian country for sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaws Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Originally posted by CombinedArms: Ah, that's what CMAK needs: Dutch Merchant Ships. If they're not included, let's stage a boycott or somefink. More seriously, if the Dutch Merchant Marine was #4 in 1940 and the US and UK were #1 & 2 (in whichever order), then who was #3? Well maybe we (The Dutch) forgot to tell that we hold the line against the Japanese until the end of 1944 on the one of the Indonesian Islands. And yes there were also Japanese on that Island with weapons 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Originally posted by CombinedArms: if the Dutch Merchant Marine was #4 in 1940 and the US and UK were #1 & 2 (in whichever order), then who was #3? Merchant tonnage, 1939 1. Great Britain ------ 21,001,925 2. United States ----- 11,470,177 4. Norway ------------ 4,833,813 7. Netherlands -------- 2,969,578 8. France ------------- 2,933,933 9. Belgium -------------- 408,418 3. Japan ------------- 5,629,845 5. Germany ---------- 4,482,662 6. Italy -------------- 3,424,804 from Bartelby.com [ May 14, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Offwhite ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Originally posted by Juju: We may be weird, but our knowledge of foreign languages is second to none We Belgians beat you both at weirdness and foreign languages. Ceci n'est pas un post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Originally posted by Richie: The Dutch did the best they could without bringing the full wrath of the Nazis upon the population. Sorry, that would be Denmark . You must have confused the Danes with the country that managed to exterminate the highest percentage of its Jewish population in Western Europe... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by Lumbergh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Richie: The Dutch did the best they could without bringing the full wrath of the Nazis upon the population. Sorry, that would be Denmark . You must have confused the Danes with the country that managed to exterminate the highest percentage of its Jewish population in Western Europe... </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by Offwhite: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by CombinedArms: if the Dutch Merchant Marine was #4 in 1940 and the US and UK were #1 & 2 (in whichever order), then who was #3? Merchant tonnage, 1939 1. Great Britain ------ 21,001,925 2. United States ----- 11,470,177 4. Norway ------------ 4,833,813 7. Netherlands -------- 2,969,578 8. France ------------- 2,933,933 9. Belgium -------------- 408,418 3. Japan ------------- 5,629,845 5. Germany ---------- 4,482,662 6. Italy -------------- 3,424,804 from Bartelby.com </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: AIUI the Dutch constabulary worked with the Germans in rounding up Jews, and securing the despatch camp. Been a long time that I read about it though. The Danes, by contrast, managed to ship most of the Danish Jews off to Sweden (aided by the German embassy and elements of the Navy, IIRC) in an evacuation across the sea. I recently read "Ajax, the Dutch, the War" by Simon "Times and FT footy writer" Kuper. I thought I was getting a football book, but it was actually all about how the Dutch managed to kill off a whopping 75% of their Jewish population in WWII. You have to try really hard to do that--even Germany could not achieve such a high "success" rate! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: AIUI the Dutch constabulary worked with the Germans in rounding up Jews, and securing the despatch camp. Been a long time that I read about it though. Dutch police did no more or less then most police forces in occupied areas. The high percentage of Jews deported resulted from several causes. It was exceedingly difficult to flee from The Netherlands due to geographic location. Also, NL is probably harder to hide in then any other country. The main cause however was that the religion of everyone was noted down before the war. While this had been out of bureaucratic efficiency only, the Germans made 'good' use of those files. Many attempts by resistance and RAF were made to destroy those documents btw. That's one reason why the Dutch don't hold census anymore. It's noteworthy that in traditionally tolerant NL anti-semitism was broadly resisted. The Danes, by contrast, managed to ship most of the Danish Jews off to Sweden (aided by the German embassy and elements of the Navy, IIRC) in an evacuation across the sea. What is this anyway? A 'My country is better at being occupied then yours' contest? In wich case those speaking on behalve of the Danes do well to tread carefully. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by Tweety: What is this anyway? A statement of facts. I am sorry you do not like them. If you try to understand what I posted (better luck 2nd time) you may realise that I do not offer an opinion on anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Cook Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tweety: What is this anyway? A statement of facts. I am sorry you do not like them. If you try to understand what I posted (better luck 2nd time) you may realise that I do not offer an opinion on anything. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Well said. I think if this is going to devolve into a colaboration debate then it will either get locked or moved to the General Forum, and we all know we don't want that to happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Originally posted by Cpt. Cook: Well to be fair the fact that you originally said "by contrast" implies that you intend to set up a comparison between the two countries. Since your country happens to come off better it isn't surprising that this would offend someone. Once you start saying your country saved more Jews and killed less than anyone else, well...You know, Andreas is a German, not a Dane... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mies Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 To understand the situation in the German occupied countries during 1939-1945 you cannot just look at some figures and draw conclusions from them. As for the Dutch situation, I know that Holland was governed by a civil, and not a military, council presided by the Austrian “Reichs Commissar” Seys Inquart. This was different than for example Belgium where there was a military council. This had its impact on the way normal day-to-day life was impacted. All the government officials were immediately available to be used by the Germans. This was also due to a directive from the Dutch government just before the war; in witch civil servants were instructed to cooperate with the new governing powers to prevent any negative influence on Dutch citizens. Proof of the fact that not the whole of Holland aided the Germans in their war effort and in their attempt to round up all the Jews are amongst others: In February 1941 there was a national strike against the way the Germans treated the Jews. This was unprecedented then. Put the work down and protest against the occupying force. In September 1944, just after operation Market Garden, the Dutch railway personal stopped their work not to be resumed until after the liberation. This meant that some 50.000 people needed to go into hiding and were not allowed to have their ration cards handed out to them. I don’t offer this as an excuse as to what happened during the war, but I want to place 5 years of occupation into a broader perspective than just facts and figures. Mies 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajak Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Originally posted by Mies: As for the Dutch situation, I know that Holland was governed by a civil, and not a military, council presided by the Austrian “Reichs Commissar” Seys Inquart. This was different than for example Belgium where there was a military council. This had its impact on the way normal day-to-day life was impacted. All the government officials were immediately available to be used by the Germans.The Germans invested considerable effort in assimilating the Netherlands into Greater Germany, wheras a lot of other occupations were merely 'military' occupations. In addition the Dutch kept very detailed populations records that fell into German hands, and it is a densely populated country, with a sizable Jewish population. It was hard to hide the Jewish population. Dutch resistance tried to destroy the population records later in the war. To be fair Dutch resistance to the occupation was probably motivated more by Dutch nationalism than the desire to save the Jewish population. The Dutch government-in-exile kept silent about the jews throughout most of the war (but the same is true for the allied governments, of course). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Originally posted by Mies: I do know something about the good 4 days (6/7 if you count the resistance in Zeeland) in which the Dutch army suffered dearly due to poor training and equipment. This however was not the fault of soldiers in the front lines. They did pretty well keeping the Germans (LSAH) away from the "Grebbeberg" and the "Afsluitdijk". SS well equipped in 1940? They were amateurs then who still had to cope with an embargo from the Wehrmacht. And only 3 days ago there was the commemoration of the fact that regular army soldiers decimated the German Fallschirmjaeger that were dropped near The Hague to, amongst others, capture the Queen and the vital airports. Force ratio? Supply stat of dropped FJ? I appreciate that the fore mentioned German units perhaps were not the crack units they were later on in the war, but they were, at that point in time better equipped and trained than the Dutch and therefore I think the Dutch soldiers deserve some credit for their actions. Finally I want to say that the capitulation only was signed after the Germans bombed Rotterdam and threatened to do the same to other large cities. The military situation was pretty bad then already, but there were plans to make a final stand at “Fortress Holland” by flooding parts of land for instance. The decision to surrender was made by general Winkelman who (and I think he was right) didn’t want to fight on and risk other cities to be bombed causing even more civilian casualties. I always thought that the bombing of Rotterdam happened after the capitulation and bad comms were not able to stop it. But back on topic: It is Barbarossa to Berlin. No Dutch troops on Allied side in the Eastern front. Best story I heard about those 3 (4,6,7 - choose whatever you like) days was a sIG shell burying several Dutch soldiers. Cease fire. Both sides running over to dig them out. Both sides running back to their positions. Skirmish continues. Gruß Joachim [ May 28, 2004, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Joachim ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 First of all, I am German, so I have no national pride issues on this particular question, I can assure you. Whether others think it is 'not probable' that I was objective is of very little concern to me - since it is quite probable they know very little about me, I don't take their opinion very seriously, and they are wrong in their assumption anyway. Secondly, to say that the Dutch police did as much or little as other police forces is a meaningless statement. The Danish police apparently did not help the Germans. The Vichy police force actively assisted them, in some cases going beyond the requirements the Germans had (Deportation of children). So where did the Dutch police fall on this 'continuum'? Did they do more or less then the French, or more or less then the Danes? Clearly the Danes had a much better chance to rescue their Jewish citizens then the Dutch. There probably were fewer of them, an un-occupied country was nearby, and maybe the Germans in Denmark helped a bit as well. But was that all? What did the Dutch police actually do? I note nobody has answered that question or corrected me - since Tweety's answer is, as pointed out above, not really very helpful. That Dutch resistance did a lot is not the issue here, and I never questioned that anyway. So did French resistance, and German resistance even tried to kill Hitler. That does not absolve everyone in the country by default. I don't have an axe to grind, I don't care for Danes more or less then I care for the Dutch, and I clearly would be the automatic loser in a 'my country, your country, and the Jews' contest. So maybe some people can leave their national pride at the door for a moment, and just tell me a little bit about what actually happened? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): The problem is that the Germans are still too busy feeling guilty about WWII to have a sense of humor about it. Actually I heard that Hogan's Heros was shown in Germany. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Originally posted by Sequoia: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq): The problem is that the Germans are still too busy feeling guilty about WWII to have a sense of humor about it. Actually I heard that Hogan's Heros was shown in Germany. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
With Clusters Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Hello to the Dutch players If any of you gentlemen have CMAK I have good news. My Dutch associates (Stoffel + Hugo) and my lowly non-Dutch self are doing a series of Dutch based scenarios. The first Dutch scenario is already up at the Scenario Depot as an Operation, Small Operations, Waalhaven 1940. We are presently working on a defense of the Grebbe and Hoornwerk against the SS attack to be followed by a few battles set in the Dutch East Indies and other parts of the Netherlands. If any of you have any Dutch based materials that are CM worthy please let us known. We could also use a few more play testers. The first operation is in English with a Dutch inset but we'd like to do them in English and Dutch so we could use a bit more Dutch language support. Hugo has contacts with Ministry of Defense so we are hoping to get some maps and other materials to assist. Contact us at my email: Wayne100@emirates.net.ae and put CMAK in the subject line. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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