SMG platoons-excellence for defense

[Andrew Kulin]

Mike:

Saved file asks for Allied Password when I load it. You were Axis right?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Andrew Kulin:

Mike:

Saved file asks for Allied Password when I load it. You were Axis right?

Okay, I obviously put the wrong up - should work now, thanks for pointing that out.

Any suggestions you have on how I might have approached this differently, and I'm all ears!

[ October 25, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Brent Pollock]

Maybe it's just my pathetic reading comprehension skills, but no where in this thread do I see the point values and parameters posted for the test battles...and I am too consarned lazy to back-calculate based on the OB posted by Michael.

If we had those, we'd be in a better position to formulate an opinion on the good and bad of the attacker choices...but for what it's worth, Michael seemed to face an awful lot of open ground. I take it panzergrenadieren were not an option (quickly cross the open ground buttoned up in halftracks)...or just too darned expensive?

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

Originally posted by TANK ACE:

GOOD GOD those graphics are horrible.

I take it that you've never played ASL........

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Shadow 1st Hussars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TANK ACE:

GOOD GOD those graphics are horrible.

I take it that you've never played ASL........ </font>

[Wolfe]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I think I had 1500 points to spend?

Actually, the map size and number of units looks more like a ~600 point Axis Attack, with the Axis getting 900 points to spend. Was it combined arms?

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Any suggestions you have on how I might have approached this differently, and I'm all ears!

Not buying FOs for a city attack might be a good start. I would have tried for one StuG, preferrably with an MG if possible, depending on the points. Direct-fire HE and the ability to transport your HMGs closer to the battle in a short period of time would make for a nice firebase in that 2-Story house you drove for. 251/1 HTs would also allow you to push your MG firepower into that forward base. You left those MGs at 400m+, greatly reducing their FP effectiveness and spotting ability.

If you could establish that firebase of MGs along with the tank and HTs, any enemy MGs that open up on you would be quickly spotted, supressed, and destroyed.

And because it's down in a swail, your tank and HTs would be protected from any AT guns (though any AT rifles would be bad for your HTs). And they would be able to shoot at any enemy units in the upper levels. Once you got your squads up in decent order, the firebase would assist getting them into the outskirts of the town.

You were still under extreme time constraints, but I think that may have given you a better chance at getting your squads forward to penetrate much further into the city.

Also, due to time constraints I would have foregone the attack on the right flank. I don't think realistically you had the time to move them up, angle them over, and then make any useful attacks against his defences.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks for all the work you put into it. A very interesting and entertaining read!

- Chris

[Michael Dorosh]

Ah, but we were playing infantry only....(!)

[JasonC]

The rematch with Mike has started. The Germans are advancing. Smoke at the edge of the town area. A Russian sniper has squeezed off a few shots...

Meanwhile, Gaylord has yet to give me my final file. GF, where are you? Let me see the score, please. It is only polite.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Ah, but we were playing infantry only....(!)

The conditions you faced in this setup were absurd. An all infantry battle with Germans attacking a "large town" of dug in Russian SMG squads? You are ultimately forced, no matter what, to attack the Russian SMG squads at the range they shine most. And Germans have abosolutely no SMG heavy infantry in October '42.

Yes, you should not have wasted points on 82mm mortar FOs in a "large town", but it would hardly have mattered what you replaced them with (the only thing I can think of is 3 150mm infantry guns). With all the skill + luck in the world your odds of winning this sort of battle are slim to none. I imagine it wasn't much fun to play.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Ah, but we were playing infantry only....(!)

The conditions you faced in this setup were absurd. An all infantry battle with Germans attacking a "large town" of dug in Russian SMG squads? You are ultimately forced, no matter what, to attack the Russian SMG squads at the range they shine most. And Germans have abosolutely no SMG heavy infantry in October '42.

Yes, you should not have wasted points on 82mm mortar FOs in a "large town", but it would hardly have mattered what you replaced them with (the only thing I can think of is 3 150mm infantry guns). With all the skill + luck in the world your odds of winning this sort of battle are slim to none. I imagine it wasn't much fun to play. </font>

[Gaylord Focker]

After being AFK for the past couple days i just sent the last turn out to JasonC and look forward to our next game, that was fun!

[ October 25, 2003, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: Gaylord Focker ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Pending you dig your SMG squads in correctly, the only way a defense on such a map *might* be broken (within the confines of a 600 point infantry battle) is if he uses multiple 150mm infantry guns.

[JasonC]

"With all the skill + luck in the world your odds of winning this sort of battle are slim to none"

Then he will have a sweet time in our current outing with roles reversed.

Meanwhile, thanks Gaylord. End game screen headed your way.

The Russians lost 35 men to the Germans 17 in that one. It was a 77-23 final score because the Germans still had all the flags (the KO points were more like 55-45, because German losses included an 81mm mortar). Unlike Mike's game the attackers were not seriously messed up, just delayed really. The Russian platoons took 10, 10, 8, 5 and 2 casualties. 75mm FO inflicted 2 of them right at the end. The 2 engaged German HMGs got 20 and 13 men respectively, losing 2 and 1 in return.

The German losses were from the Sturmovik (9 men and a mortar) and the support weapons - 2 from each of 2 82mm mortars, 1 each from a 76mm IG and a 25mm FLAK, and 2 by a regular sniper. Neither side's squad infantry scored a single kill.

Gaylord is also interested in a rematch. Sent.

With Mike, 3rd turn done, orders for 4th sent. A Russian sniper has taken half a dozen potshots at the advancing Germans. They have reduced the distance to town, but are not yet in it. A small amount of smoke lingers.

[ October 26, 2003, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Gaylord Focker]

I'll take my turn for the rematch tomorrow as it's getting late here now.

A turn will be out by early afternoon at the latest.

[xerxes]

It was a 600 point axis attack. You can tell be loading the game file that Michael gave out, going to the map view and hit briefing. Also, if you want to load the map into a QB you need to save the game file Michael sent and then put it in your QB maps folder. You can then "load from file" on the map selection screen of the QB.

I tried an attack against the ai selecting similar defensive forces as Jason did. It's not easy and against a better defender then the ai it would be very difficult.

Buying 8 75mm IGs helps out a lot though. The 75mm IGs are very useful because they're cheap, have a good HE load and their DF smoke is critical for blocking out the maxims on the initial approach. The problem with guns, particularly on this map, is that a good defender would probably have some onboard mortars to deal with a gun heavy attack force.

Going only with 150mm IGs is problematic since the 150 dies just as easily as the cheaper 75mm IG when hit by mortars.

[flamingknives]

The only way I can think of for breaking through the town defence comprised of SMGs is to use pioneers and variously blow up or set of fire any suspicious buildings.

However, as it takes 3 satchel charges to take down a large stone building (I think, been a while since I tested that one) you'd run out of them PDQ. Failing that, pelt everything in sight with 150mm IGs, and hope there aren't too many mortars.

[JasonC]

1st quarter finished in Mike's rematch. A Russian sniper's 8 shots so far have been the only fire from the defenders. A small smoke mission early, and in the last two minutes sustained fire by one German MG, have been the only shots from the attackers. German infantry gathers on the outskirts. Overall, a quiet-ish 1st period spent on the approach march.

[Gaylord Focker]

Waiting on JasonC for a turn. I just made my purchases and am ready to deploy.

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Meanwhile, Gaylord has yet to give me my final file. GF, where are you? Let me see the score, please. It is only polite.

My bad, i must have missed this post, for some reason i thought you had the last one, it's on it's way!!

[JasonC]

S'OK Gaylord, our mails just cross that is all. I saw the end of the old one. Underway, turn 1 sent, in the rematch.

Meanwhile on turn 6 vs. Mike, a big change in activity from the previous turns. A gun duel, small arms exchanged on the edge of town, and large caliber HE hitting the center, with one large stone building going down in a plume of smoke.

Now turn 7. Gun duel continuing. 3 large stone buildings are now dust.

And now going on turn 3 with Gaylord. German MGs where they were last time. A Russian gun prep fires on the church. It draws mortar rounds. A sniper is heard from. More German MG chattering. Now a serious Russian barrage lands on their right. German fire ebbs for the moment.

[ October 27, 2003, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Frunze]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Towns are good SMG country. Woods are good SMG country. Hills are good SMG country (think "reverse slope, right behind the crest"). Even "small hills" will generally give enough in the way of crests, unless the map is tiny.

The only thing that isn't good SMG country is open ground.

Sure. But the town setting helps the defender in infantry-only. In trees or trenches, mortars could have suppressed your MGs - or had a better chance anyway. In buildings, it takes armor, with towed guns as a distant second choice. I don't much care for towed guns on offense, personally, because of the weaknesses you've pointed out.

The buildings also reduced the effectiveness of small-cal FOs against your platoons.

I also agree that close terrain is usually better for the attacker. Except that in these scenarios, the defender was in town, with plenty of cover, while the attacker had to cross relatively open terrain to the town.

'Course, you probably won mostly 'cause of your skill, and GF's complete lack of it, rather than either terrain or SMGs...

I don't think there is a really good counter to SMGs in close terrain. A good player will put them somewhere they can't be engaged from long range. So if I knew I was facing SMGs, I'd probably buy close-range firepower mostly - as much infantry as I could, with as many SMGs, and maybe pioneers. Some long-range firepower would be needed to deal with your MGs of course.

The SMG's only weakness is low ammo. Your post about how to confront them with infantry, firing from different angles at midrange, is probably the best way - scouts would be lost discovering them, almost unavoidably.

[ October 27, 2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Frunze ]

[Charlie Rock]

Seems to me a couple of ways of beating SMGs...

1) Offset their close in superiority of firepower with numbers. 2-3 squads of less effective long range infantry vs. 1 squad of SMGers. Costly and usually doesn't work that well.

2) Scout with small teams and engage the SMGers from distance. Preferably with HE chuckers. Assumes you have a clear LOS from distance. A competent defender won't let you, though.

3) Use their strength against them. If they can't engage from long range, then beating SMGers will depend on a narrow penetration in depth. SMGers in buildings or forests have a hard time providing mutual support. If you knock off a flank platoon or element the others have to break out of their positions to come to you.

I'd say a wide front attack against enemy with short range weapons is a waste of assets. Defenders with short range weapons are begging to be bypassed.

4) I personally get my butt kicked by SMG defenders when I am careless and in a hurry. The real question would be a 40-50 turn battle, as opposed to a shorter QB. It is similar to a bunker line, I suppose. If you take the time to reconnoiter with small teams and get a picture of where the bad guys are you can mass outside of range---if you rush things you'll pay. It takes time to flank and roll up a position--another reason SMG defenses and ambushes can't be beat if you are in a hasty attack. It's hard to be deliberate and methodical when higher wants you to take down the OBJ in 25 minutes!

My .02$. Great posts, by the way.

CR

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Frunze:

But the town setting helps the defender in infantry-only. In trees or trenches, mortars could have suppressed your MGs - or had a better chance anyway. In buildings, it takes armor, with towed guns as a distant second choice.

'Course, you probably won mostly 'cause of your skill, and GF's complete lack of it, rather than either terrain or SMGs...

This was my point exactly. If you have 2 opponents of equal skill, the defender sporting Russian SMGs in this Large Town "infantry" battle setup cannot lose. And I'm not sure how the "tips and tricks" forum benifits from tactical conclusions derived from unevenly matched skill levels.

A more reasonable setup might be a village + medium trees + small hills terrain setting. This is a nice, middle of the road map in terms of terrain density.

[ October 27, 2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[JasonC]

That is exactly the terrain I have with Gaylord.

Incidentally, 4 turns of that rematch done. Heavy Russian barrage continuing on the German left. Only one MG shot from the Germans last turn. Overall, the Russian approach march is going smoothly. As I wrote to Gaylord privately, the moral of the story is don't send 25mm AA to do the heavy artillery's job.

With Mike, downtown looks rather different after turn 8. 4 large stone buildings in the center "lamba" block of 7 have collapsed under a German 170mm barrage. Guns are still dueling, with marginal LOS making for numerous misses.

For you QBers, notice that a green 170mm used for planned fire costs about what Michael's 2 81mms did. (Actually I also got smoke, cheaply, from a 2 gun 75mm, also green). While having a much greater impact on an urban defense.

Many have spoken of the battle's conditions but haven't pointed out the small map size in that one. It helps SMGs defend certainly, because they can more readily cover the short ranges in a small battle. But it also makes it harder to miss outright with planned arty fire.

In the case of the fight vs. Gaylord, the map is rather larger and there are more defender locations. But it is a largely reverse slope position. There aren't many places where the Germans can start that have both good cover and LOS of the forward slopes of the center hill.

There are some on the German left, with a view on the Russian right and diagonally to the center along the side of the slope of that hill, rather than its curve. A wood, some rubble ahead of it, a few nearby buildings and shellholes. I used that position extensively in my own defense.

I targeted it with Russian 122mm guns (not howitzers - somewhat heavier) for prep fire this time. Seems to be working rather well. I took fire from the area the first turn so there are defenders there - and it has certainly stopped.

Gaylord's instinct in reaching for the Sturm was to fight the SMGs asymmetrically. There is nothing wrong with that instinct. He just picked a particularly expensive and not very controlled weapon for it. 122 guns cost me less than half as much, and by knowing where to put them I'll bet I got more bang out of them - and certainly more help on the approach march - than Gaylord got from his Sturm.

He had the right idea, that SMGs can't fight an IL-2. They can't fight incoming ~100 lb shells launched from 8 miles away either, whether Russian 122 or German 170. It is not the whole story, but a good place to start is learning to use heavy artillery effectively.

[ October 27, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[JasonC]

Vs. Gaylord, some Russians have reached the crest of the hill in the center (at minute 5) to find a few Germans waiting for them, less than 100m away. They press through fire to a wood building, still in LOS. Smoke clears on the German left. A Russian gun continues to pound the church.

Vs. Mike, it continues to be an artillery tale. Now the Russians are being heard from, with a dozen rounds of what appears to be 120mm mortar fire landing 100-150m outside the town. A large wood building between dueling guns goes down after "intercepting" another slightly "wide" shot - the 5th to collapse so far.