SMG platoons-excellence for defense

[GreenAsJade]

So now, to really prove the point, someone needs to attempt the same defense but _without_ SMG squads.

I mean, this whole defense might have been a piece of cake with pistol platoons, for all we know

[Joachim]

Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

So now, to really prove the point, someone needs to attempt the same defense but _without_ SMG squads.

I mean, this whole defense might have been a piece of cake with pistol platoons, for all we know

2nd this. Maybe Michael D. has a chance for some close encounters now after he run the gauntlet out in the open, but his troops are neither in good shape nor order. I guess even I would not need SMG squads to defend vs the odds we now see in the city.

Either use a bonus for the attacker (+50%) so the force ratio is still in his favor (1.5:1 or better) when he comes to town. Or use a setup with covered approaches.

Fionn's Sunken Lane AAR comes to mind. The effects of a few SMG plts or a few 1SMG/1LMG9 rifle plts instead of the 2SMG/2AR/2LMG/xRifle plts would really show up there.

(BTW: The JC-MD AAR is excellent, with JC-GF still good. The setup is not optimal to show the point.)

Gruß

Joachim

[JasonC]

I can give analysis of both battles that will show the role the presence of SMGs on the defending side had in both. But I am waiting for the fights to finish, because I do not reveal things during ongoing games that the other commander wouldn't know.

I can also show against the same players methods of attack that I expect will work better than what each of them tried. I am keen to do so. Without changing the odds or conditions. The defenders are welcome to use the force structures I selected, or their own. I will of course select my own attacking forces.

Incidentally, on "odds now seen in the city", I don't think they are favorable for the Germans (anymore), but they may also seem higher than they are. One Russian platoon has defended from 4 different buildings so far (while losing only 5 men).

Meanwhile in the fight against Gaylord, it is late enough I can now say practically the entire fight was conducted by exactly 2 HMG teams. My limited rifle infantry got off a few shots but drew support fire, losing 4 men. A small patrol drew ranged fire that hit 2 men, without ever engaging in close. Ivan Sturmo hit some guys deep in my positions - half of my losses. But essentially, 12 men delayed the entire attacking force for the full 20 minute time limit, losing 3 men in the process.

This was certainly not due to SMGs, but it shows that the support of rifle infantry was not necessary for the "up", exposed part of the defense to work. Gaylord did not attack the position correctly. The methods he used would have worked fine in CMBO, but failed completely in CMBB.

In CMBO, any HMG firing on his infantry crossing the snow would have been fully IDed instantly. His overwatch guns were strong enough to KO them if they had been fully located quickly. Also, his movements over open ground under fire would have succeeded in CMBO - a unit or two would have accelerated to "run", maybe 1-2 panicked, but in a few minutes he would have reached his objectives. The MGs would have done little to so many men once they reached cover. Their replies, at fully IDed locations, would have finished off whatever the guns left. Inside of 5 minutes he would have blinded the forward portion of the defense and had freedom of movement on his side of the hill.

The impression that a few MGs cannot carry the ranged fight without being supplimented at medium range by the greater firepower of whole platoons of LMG and rifle infantry, would be accurate for CMBO MGs and infantry performance under fire.

What happened instead in our fight, is Gaylord never reached the real teeth of the defense. His overwatch fire was directed at sound contacts until the last few minutes. It was pretty ineffective. I lost more firing time to 2 jams than to the occasional pins from near misses. He did force one HMG to move from the church to a different firing location, but it did so successfully, inside of 2 minutes, and without creating any "lift" for his attackers during its "down time".

His guns shot up a small patrol of a single SMG squad, split, plus stealthy platoon HQ, that I sent over the crest in the first couple minutes ("Braun's patrol"). This was an OP mission. They first intended just to wait in a wooded area on the crest, observe movements, and give warning time to the main reverse slope defense behind. They could give a short ambush from their woods. Which were TRPed for 75mm HE (4 tube), to help them break contact if attacked there.

When no one came their way, I got ambitious and decided to move them down the front side of the hill, intending to circle it to their left and get on the left rear of his main body. This was a bit rash, and would only have worked if he had literally nothing on his left - but after my first few minutes of sightings I considered that possible. His guns pinned Braun's patrol, rattled one half squad, and hit 2 men. But there was nothing local to follow it up so this was essentially without consequence. They snuck away a bit, recovered, and reverted to the previous OP role. They provided intel - above all, the intel that there was no attack on my right - pretty much as planned.

The Sturm hit 7 men with its bombing pass, and pinned a number. This was on my main reverse slope position. It happened so soon, though, that I had time to put everything back together. On its second, rocket pass, it also took out a 81mm mortar it caught in the open. Which was moving up to go after his overwatch guns. In retrospect, mortars back was not as useful as in command of the forward OPs initially. And trying to move them in snow to correct this was a mistake. But it was a small loss, for a 219 points Sturmovik (less than a squad of SMG infantry, and 1 81mm mortar).

His only other success came against my limited LMG-rifle infantry on my left. I had a forward position there, not really on the forward slope but close to it, with some LOS around the left side of the hill. His guns put HE into the woods there, and broke 2 squads, hitting 4 men. One recovered by the end, the other was still out of it. This position was supporting one of the HMGs, which remained in operation and prevented any close approach to the vulnerable men. Who were, in addition, protected by an AP minefield denying the first tier of cover ahead of their position.

I also shifted a platoon from the main position on my right to backstop them, some around the church with the company HQ immediately behind the weakened platoon, to rally them if the platoon HQ went down. The mine barrier was also in LOS of my rear heavy weapons, which were sighted at the crest line generally - another 81mm, a 20mm quad flak, and a 4-tube 75mm FO. Combined with the mines and the backstop platoon, any attempt to get at the weakened men would have failed pretty spectacularly - though they probably would have bought it, too. In fact he never got close.

Since I intend to show how to attack on this map in a redo, if Gaylord is up for it, I won't say more about what he could have done differently.

This is already essentially a postmortem in the Gaylord game. As I already sent him my turn 20, that's fine. Mike still has a few turns so I am holding off the same kind of analysis about his. Again I will be somewhat limited by my intention to show, rather than tell, what can be done differently (Mike is keen for our role reversed rematch).

[ October 23, 2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[walpurgis nacht]

Jason:

I will happily demonstrate the correct way to deal with your smg squads. Ready for another pbem setup?

[Michael Dorosh]

My time was limited yesterday and will be again today, but Fri and the weekend I will have time to finish the game, and the AAR, if JasonC is around.

I will also put up some movie files for download if anyone is keen on wandering around the battlefield.

I'd like to see Walpurgis play on the same map I did, if you two duke it out.

[JasonC]

Walpurgis - its really not a tag team, nor is this the opponent forum. If you have a thesis, though, why not state it? Gaylord did. Michael jumped up on hearing of the match. We haven't even finished those, and one wants a roles reversed rematch. Who knows, perhaps I'll agree with your thesis, unlike Gaylord's.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Walpurgis - its really not a tag team, nor is this the opponent forum. If you have a thesis, though, why not state it? Gaylord did. Michael jumped up on hearing of the match. We haven't even finished those, and one wants a roles reversed rematch. Who knows, perhaps I'll agree with your thesis, unlike Gaylord's.

Hey, YOU challenged me!

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Walpurgis - its really not a tag team, nor is this the opponent forum. If you have a thesis, though, why not state it?

There is only one rule to consider as "thesis" when destroying any defense: bring superior firepower against whatever opposes you. Otherwise, general philosophy on tactics is of limited value against an experienced player.

SMG squads can be bested in 100s of ways. The specific approach to dealing with them depends on an infinite variety of other variables such as terrain, date, weather, time-frame, unit experience, available resources, and on and on and on.

Against an experienced opponent, the best attack is an unpredictable one. So, it would not serve me to explain a particular method, until after a game.

If you are ready for a small pbem setup that would be great. After, I will happily post a detailed AAR explaining how it was done which will benefit the "Tips and Tricks" forum.

[ October 24, 2003, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Walpurgis Night ]

[JasonC]

There you have it ladies and gentlemen. Bring superior firepower to bear against whatever opposes you. Thanks, glad you cleared that up, none of us will ever lose again.

Wal, I have no reason to play you. You give every indication of simply having a chip on your shoulder and only being interested in ego. If that is not your intention, you might look around for a way to show it.

[JasonC]

That is true, Mike - after you practically started selling tickets.

[JasonC]

Useful comments Adam (as usual), and mostly correct about the two battles.

One thing to understand when you speak about the probes and ambushes, though, is that SMGs are a "deep" aspect of a defense. They generally aren't the surface. A few small patrol sized ambushes, maybe, but it isn't their forte.

The reason is you really don't want to burn 12 shots from every squad in an SMG platoon blowing up the same point half squad. It is overkill and poor ammo efficiency. Sure, if you catch them in the right spot you may wipe them out completely with 1-3 shots per unit. But you can't be sure of that, and the potential ammo cost is high. SMGs are not "distance runners". You save them until le moment juste, then unleash.

In my fight with Mike, the single Russian platoon that fought from 4 buildings in succession was the only LMG and rifle type in my force. It was Recon, the type with 3 SMGs each in 12 man squads, with 44 ammo - quite a powerful type as rifle infantry goes.

They first covered the open ground in front of the center, split between two buildings. When one got hot they all shifted into the rearward of the two. They managed to hold there for another few minutes, then shifted out the back again toward their right rear.

This let them cover the right side "main drag", and also the near side of the buildings they had just pulled out of. They sent one squad at this point to the building across the street, to suppliment the ranged fire on an HMG there with some rifle infantry (the rest there were SMGs and therefore range limited).

After a few minutes, Russian arty was set to land "danger close" to the main platoon position, targeted at the Germans in the building only 40m away. They left by the back of that building too, hung a sharp right, ran (not walked) 2 blocks down, and re-entered another large stone building.

They got inside a minute before the Germans, coming from the second building they had fought from and edging away from the barrage. They made it to the front windows just in time to catch a whole flock of them in the street outside.

So this was fight until it gets hot, then fall back, repeatedly. The moves were only on the order of 50m a time. And it was LMG and rifle rather than SMG infantry - meaning 44 ammo firing 6 shots a turn, not 25 ammo firing 12.

Now, SMGs work with a force that includes a few rifle infantry units and numerous MGs by being the "hard" backstop of these positions. Those are light enough that they invite infantry counters. They annoy and pin, they occasionally break, but they do not kill.

And there can be a lot of positions - LMGs relocating, rifle infantry relocating, HMGs that stubbornly rally after losing 2 men and have the ammo to fire forever. To suppress them all in sequence with small arms fire is not really practical. You run out of time and out of squad ammo.

You can either hit every LMG with an HE sledgehammer, therefore, or you want to send infantry in close to bag the suckers *efficiently*. Against the HE solution the defender's counters are limited LOS - keyholes, crossing angles, long LOS from the back-slope, views just along the curve of a hill. Also active countermeasures - the forward HQ with a mortar, or the FO, to call down fire on a gun; hidden PAK for whom the MGs are bait to draw in the tank they are waiting for.

Against the infantry solution - ah, that is where the SMGs come in. An annoying screen generates pinning fire. When the attacking infantry seeks to close with elements of this screen to KO bit of it efficiently, *then* you want him to run into SMG ambushes. As more than he bargained for.

His half squad scouts, the screen itself will pin. He needs whole platoons to overpower the MG line. That is what creates the high value target worth blowing half an SMG platoon's ammo load on in one turn. After which, yes the SMGs decamp. That they can inflict their hurtin' in one turn helps them avoid HE replies. Their hurtin' does not go away with rally - that is its leading characteristic. It kills rather then just breaking.

Similarly with your example of the breakthrough attempt, behind a barrage. It is exactly such a hard-drive that hidden SMGs are best against. The barrage clobbers the known line - but it is just screen (a rifle platoon, MGs). The company pours through the "breech". Into the backstop. Too fast kills. Inducing delay and caution, on top of the delay already inflicted by the annoyers.

There are definite things you can do to them, though. They can't afford to throw ammo even 125 yards at men in cover. They run dry before their targets break. A firebase of ordinary infantry opposite them, at the right distance, will force them away from "up" deployments, therefore. Then you play isolate and HE, just as Adam said. You have to walk through this kind of defense patiently, by fire dominance.

To deal with all the screen elements, you need *efficient* heavy weapons support. That means when an MG opens you (1) get full ID then (2) put a mortar on it (trees) or gun (building). Or a sniper. You must take the pain they can inflict on your infantry, rallying through it. You don't need to blow your squad ammo on them, and you can't afford to toss HE at sound contacts, or drop a heavy FO barrage on an LMG.

The role of the regular infantry to to take the pain to advance to cover close enough for full ID. Its base of fire at 150m or so prevents any sally. Heavy weapons and this fire must break the screen elements where they stand. That means you must have the right ranged weapons for the terrain. When the screen is down, blinded, broken, then you can move about at 125m and play isolate and HE. You want your heavy HE left for this, not blown on the screen.

In the case of Gaylord, he did not press his infantry close enough for a full ID. He had the overwatch weapons, whereas Mike took 81mm mortars for smoke (bad idea - one 2 gun green 75mm is cheap smoke, 2 full regular 81s is a cadillac price for limited protection). But he did not get them the spots he needed. So their considerable firepower was largely wasted.

He didn't get close enough because he moved too bunched up, allowing too many men to be pinned by 1 MG in a turn, and because he didn't make enough use of covered routes and dead ground. Which he did have available. He needed to push with advance to get some eyes close. It didn't need to be a whole company. Once he had eyes in cover close to the HMGs, his guns would have blown them up in short order. HMGs are hard to relocate successfully.

If one did reposition, he'd have to repeat the drill. And there he had one serious drawback. His overwatch weapons were stationary. He kept his infantry along 1-2 routes because he could see the spots that could see those routes from his set up gun positions. But when one HMG repositioned it was out of LOS of his guns, in LOS of open ground ahead of his infantry.

And he didn't have any mobile heavy weapons to respond to this. He had a mortar and 2 HMGs, but slow speed in snow is a snail's pace. His best bet was a sniper - which I believe he had and got him one "pin". Medium speed is primo in snow. 2x50mm mortar, SG43 MMGs, snipers, a radio FO - these would have done the trick. (Rich men have T-34s lol).

I hope this is interesting.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

That is true, Mike - after you practically started selling tickets.

You need to read the General Forum more! This was SUPPOSED to be your big chance to rid the forum of GF for us!!

[Michael Dorosh]

Anyway - thanks to JasonC for an instructive match, needless to say, well played on his part. I've appreciated the dialogue. I'll try and get some movie files up and a finalized AAR soon. Jason, I've included some of your comments here on the forum in my own AAR. Quite interesting how close to the mark you were about my OOB quite early on.

I think, in all seriousness, I have given a fine lesson in how NOT to attack a city with SMGs in it.

You can see my comments on my FO in my AAR.

That would be the main thing I did differently.

I had hoped that getting my troops into town in numbers, and en masse (I had no idea you had an FO), I would still be able to build up local superiority and attack your squads one at a time. I wonder if I wouldn't have been better off starting on the right (my right) and at least be able to move my MGs up through a covered approach?

Anyway, don't answer that. I'll see how YOU do it on the rematch, I am sure it will be equally instructive.

[JasonC]

Some immediate post mortem observations - 13 Russians hit or 8% of them, 97 Germans or 39% of them. Half the Russian losses were to the MG teams, which scored 17 to 6 (4 to 4 for the DP LMGs, 13 to 2 for the HMGs), the other half to the rifle infantry. The rifle infantry inflicted half the German losses, scoring 43 to 6.

Only 1 SMG platoon out of 3 was actually engaged - it took out 33 men and lost 1 man in its HQ. Russian HE pinned a lot of people in the center late, but only actually hit 2 men. (The last German hit was apparently 81mm "friendly fire").

Overall, the LMGs exchanged off, the heavy screening elements killed their own number for loss of only 15%, and the SMGs killed their own number "clean", using only half their ammo - when actually engaged, but mostly weren't needed.

I kept a bit of a combat diary of the early parts of the fight, but not of the later portions (as I was able to post commentary here, after a point). I will post that next.

[JasonC]

JC v MD Russian combat diary -

Russian deployment and tasking scheme

Force - SMG company, Recon A platoon, 2 HMG, 2 LMG, 1 76mm IG, 1 120mm FO, 1 TRP, 1 AP Mine, 5 Wire, 1 Trench

Commanders - Company commander +2 command, +1 morale, +1 combat (excellent)

Recon A platoon +1 combat and command, +2 stealth.

SMG Platoon commanders - +2 command, +2 morale, +1 combat. 2nd - +1 morale. 3rd - Green, no bonuses.

Tasking - the green SMG platoon leader gives 2 squads to company HQ, who acts as the reserve. With 1 squad split into halves plus green SMG HQ, forms left flank "fake platoon" ambush and LP detachment (5xSMG, 4xSMG HQ, 4xSMG). This sets up in a stone building with 60-70m covered arcs across the "square" on my left.

The +1 morale SMG platoon is assigned to the center sector, starting in the middle flag building, which is wired x3 on its left-front access routes. Tightly deployed in 1 building. They can get out front and left by narrow routes past the wire, right-rear freely. When German main body spotted headed for my right, they shift right and forward 1 building (across one street), covering their right front.

The best SMG platoon HQ has my right, one set of buildings ahead of the main objective. Its HQ on the 2nd floor, command reaches to both HMG positions (explained below). Short arcs cover the pavement beyond the next set of buildings, not into them.

The Recon A platoon sets up in the diagonal row of large buildings covering the center. They are set to fire forward and left at 100-150m. Positioned near the LMGs, which are a building farther on but within command range of its HQ. By crossing the buildings they are in to the right they can shift their fire to the flank of the "main drag" approach to the primary objective.

The company HQ and 2 SMG squad reserve starts behind the main objective building. They split to create foxholes stringing rubbled buildings together to make a route around the right. At start, they shift into large building behind the main objective and reform into full squads, and await developments.

The FO goes in a safe location far behind the main objective building, with LOS to that building, the middle flag, and the damaged building across the street between them. The TRP is placed on the first large building in the main town area on my right, and fire at that TRP is the main planned use of the 120s. The rest is for late game fire only.

The 76mm IG is placed at the end of a trench stretching over to the "reserve" building. It sights down the road to my left of the main objective building. Can also see the damaged corner building and the main objective buildings. Its planned role is to HE Germans out of key buildings when taken, and to rubble the corner building when opportune.

The AP minefield goes to the right of a right side building, along a board hugging flank.

The wire goes in 2 groups, x3 and x2. The first blocks most of the streets across to the middle flag building. The second blocks the "main drag" toward the primary objective, between the buildings in the second row into town. Only a narrow route left out of the building at the end of that street (sighted by IG). The block on the right side partially covered in front by this wire as well.

The point of the obstacle plan is to channel his attack towards the main objective through the buildings sighted by HE weapons. It is also designed to enable a scratch force to hold the middle flag (a few SMGs in a heavy building behind wire).

The HMGs are positioned on my right, one in the foremost of the main objective buildings, 2nd floor, sighted down that street. Meant to divide the attackers toward the main objective into right narrow edge group and center group. The second is in the foremost large building on the right map edge, sighted toward the center and the open areas. Meant to harass distant movement unless my right is carried by direct attack. Also the only HMG covering the distant open areas.

The LMGs are positioned in the 2nd row of buildings in town, 2nd floor and at corners, to look out over the open fields and pin things. Not in the foremost to avoid too easy direct fire. No hiding, these cut loose at the word "go".

During his "smoking period", the 2 LMGs fired a dozen shots apiece and the rightward HMG fired a similar number. The rearward HMG fired 3 times at the close of the period. The Recon platoon has remained hidden.

The present arc scheme has the Recon platoon isolating lanes between the large stone buildings to the left of the "main drag" route. Rearward HMG cuts parallel to this along said route. Rightward HMG cuts behind the large buildings. LMGs cross right and forward, though of course weakly.

Turn 4 - one HMG taking fire from 7 units including an HMG high up in the starting buildings. Nothing worse than "pinned" but still too hot. I order him to reposition, back into the building to break LOS, down to the ground floor, and back to a street window with fewer enemies able to see him. The +2 morale commander behind is keeping him in the fight. The Recon platoon extends its covered arcs to around 175m to cover a route one unit took successfully last turn. One LMG is ordered to turn left to cross its fire with the other on that side. The rear HMG extends its range to 450m, as everything closer in its "cone" has made it into cover.

Executing - the HMG makes it out, "sneaking" a little on the stairs. Still must set up, and therefore vulnerable for the next 45 seconds or so. One enemy closing, I am hoping an LMG can delay him until the HMG is repositioned. (Also if he goes relatively wide the AP minefield may halt him just outside). I wouldn't mind an SMG unit in that building as a "reception committee" for the leading scout. I'll have to check whether I still have a covered route to make it possible next turn.

Recon has pinned 3 units into one small wooden building at the edge of town, though 2 squads had to fire to achieve this. On my far left, he is working a scout forward in dead ground to the Recon position. They are observed by the SMG(-) "ambush patrol" on that side. Fire has shifted to 1 of the 2 LMGs. Not a man hit yet, only the MGs seriously used, though 2 recon squads have also fired now, 1 and 2 shots respectively, and must be presumed located.

6 turns down. No men hit yet. LMGs continue harassment, 25 and 30 ammo left = half. Right front HMG repositioned and back in action. 9 SMGs have joined them in their building. Reserve comes up on the right, where that SMG squad came from. One Recon squad repositioning to fire right. Center SMG platoon returning to original positions - a bit worried about LOS cutting them off too far forward. (Can momentarily block the LOS with IG smoke if necessary, but only 2 rounds so not yet).

He has worked a platoon up on my right, past the fence. Another stuffed in a small wood building in the center, with one unit ahead of them in the first stone building there. Must expect a whole platoon there soon. Recon set to fire only into the open streets, LMGs shifting back somewhat. Another platoon moving up on my distant left, still not in action. Tall wood building and trees acting as mini firebase. Rear HMG to suppress the tree portion. MGs continue to suck out his ammo without loss.

IG got off one shot on very narrow LOS late last turn, plastering a "crew?" = heavy weapon moving forward on my center-right. Should get off one more round this turn. Not great that he knows it is there now, but worth it if it KOs a heavy weapon and remains unscathed.

Turn 7 - 1st man hit, one Machine Gunner in right forward HMG team. Under fire from 4 squads at 150m and 2 HMGs at 500m. At "alerted" by the end of the turn - got as low as "cautious". Got off 2 shots himself. The MGs continue to draw ammo teeth at little cost. But the Germans are accumulating in the buildings at the city edge, now in platoon strength in several locations. The first stone building has been entered, last turn just a scout but this turn most of a platoon. Germans expend additional 81mm for smoke, this time on my left. Estimate they have only 10-25 rounds remaining in that module.

And still more 81s - definitely 2 FOs. Perhaps 50, perhaps 75 rounds into the 2nd one. German infantry have made it into the second row of buildings in one spot, in platoon strength. One LMG in the same building as them, and spotted. He has fired all his ammo and is left to duke it out "low" at 7m. Can't be helped. Other MGs and a few squads are getting occasional shots at men in the streets, 1-3 at a time. Little ammo expended so far. Still only the 1 MG gunner hit, and only the previously mentioned LMG at "cautious" morale. The HMG on the right is "alerted". Infantry type are Jager 42, with some split into half squads.

Turn 10, both LMG teams finally buy it. 2 riflemen in the most exposed Recon squad are also hit, and the squad pinned, by fire from a full platoon of Germans at 80m. Total losses in the first half of the fight - 7 men. SMG ammo expended - zero. Recon is still basically full strength and is consolidating this turn in one building. Both HMGs remain in operation, with 40 and 21 ammo expended. The one on the right has Germans in the next building, less than 20m away, but without LOS.

The SMGs have a squad with this HMG and a squad plus HQ "patrol" on the left, plus 3 main positions - middle objective (behind Recon), with center HMG (company HQ position, front of main objective), and right (between the two HMGs). 120s have been called on the building Recon is vacating and is now 4 minutes out. The 76 also has LOS to that one. Can shift right if needed, to the TRP, but this gives options for the middle of the second half of the fight as to where to use the HE.

The plan is for Recon and the HMGs to sell themselves dear, and the SMGs to cut loose only when Germans step into the streets afterward to follow up. HE will hit them in the buildings on the way to the main objective. SMGs covering the necessary streets are to stop them if they continue. If the HE breaks them in the buildings, the SMGs may counterattack in the final minutes.

I expect to lose Recon to a company of German infantry over the next 3-5 minutes, but selling themselves dear as a platoon strongpoint in a stone building, well led and high on ammo. I expect to lose the HMG on the right and the accompanying SMG squad, if he can get enough men forward there, though I hope the SMG ammo takes a significant number of Germans. I am not worried about the other HMG. Long range fire will not hurt them in a heavy building, and to get closer they have to step into the HE and SMG fire zones.

I want him to be shocked that he hasn't face the HE yet but it nevertheless exists. I want him to be even more shocked that with all the fire he has faced, so far he hasn't taken a single SMG squad "bullet". If those happen around the 15th minute for the first time, I doubt he will have the wind to continue through them. So despite the pressure about to fall on Recon, the SMGs continue the tightest possible fire discipline.

Turn 11 - He goes for the forward HMG on my right. The waiting SMG squad pounces just as hoped, and wipes out a squad and an HQ, saving the HMG. The HMG jammed in the meantime, and the SMG squad used half its ammo to get the kills because they made it into the building before he cut loose. Only one unit left far forward on that side, reading "HQ". If true, the lone SMG squad might advance and kill it, giving the HMG time to clear the jam. Only difficulty is keeping command distance. Also, as they are in a light building the ammo usage might again be high.

Meanwhile with Recon, 5 men are now down in that platoon, making 10 men hit overall (no other new losses). One squad relocating was pinned by fire in the middle of the building it was leaving. It has mostly broken LOS by now and recovered to yellow morale, but failed to complete its move in the first minute. All other movements completed safely. With the threat on the right easing, the last squad should have time to make it back.

Indeed, I might pull the whole Recon platoon back an additional building if the right becomes completely clear, freeing their withdrawal route of observation. That would draw him in to the HE tier of buildings. I don't want to lose more men to many on few than I have to - but on the other hand making him spend time and ammo is valuable at this point. He might also develop over caution after the SMG debacle on my right. If so, I don't want to pull back too fast.

(Sequel - Recon pulled back, and when the arty was a minute out redeployed again to the left as described previously. The rest mostly held positions, with only single squad movements from building to building, and adjustment of up or back window positionings, arcs on and off etc, for the rest).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Russian HE pinned a lot of people in the center late, but only actually hit 2 men. (The last German hit was apparently 81mm "friendly fire").

Not sure what time frame this refers to; my 81s ran out of ammo well before the last turn...

Incidentally, the final score was 91-9; I had expected it to be even more lopsided in Jason's favour. We also didn't play to completion, I hit alt-C on turn 19 and Jason did likewise at the start of turn 20, so we didn't play the final turn. I think the lesson had been well and truly concluded by that point in any event!

[JasonC]

"Russian HE" means HE tossed *by* Russians, not *at* Russians. I meant my 120mm mortar FO and the field gun. They didn't hit much of anybody, but I noticed a lot of men in "pinned" morale states at the end, in the buildings they'd been hitting the last few turns.

What I meant by "that last German" was that my own unit's totals for kills only came to 96, while the AAR screen said there were 97 Germans casualties.

LMGs - 2 + 2 = 4

HMGs - 9 + 4 = 13

Recon - 26 + 8 + 5 + 4 = 43

SMG-1 - 13 + 11 + 5 + 4 = 33

Other SMG - 1

76mm IG - 1

120mm FO - 1

Russian Total - 96

German 81mm friendly fire on your right, earlier, apparently hit one man.

Note also - 4 LMGers got 4, 12 HMGers got 13, 39 Recon got 43, 31 SMG-1 got 33. Those heavily engaged basically accounted for their own number.

My own loss rates were LMGs 100%, HMGs 25%, Recon 15%, SMG-1 3%.

Incidentally, I have sent both players rematch files with sides reversed, using the same maps we had. Still waiting for the final file from Gaylord - I haven't seen the last turn's movie yet.

Gaylord certainly did better on score than Michael, incidentally. I lost 17 Germans in that one (half to the Sturmovik), including a valuable 81mm mortar, whereas I lost only 13 Russians in the other, with the most valuable units lost 2 DP LMGs. I held all flags in both.

As the Germans, though, I doubt I inflicted any serious casualties, since 2 HMGs did essentially all the German firing. Even at targets in the open, at range those cannot have hit that many men. They mostly just scared them and slowed them down.

[ October 24, 2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Spook]

I am straying a bit from the main topics at hand, here, but given the demonstrated attention in here in regards to SMG effectiveness under given engagement ranges, terrain, and tactics, what would be the view of others in here on if the CM system, as evolved to CMBB/CMAK, has similarly pegged later small arms like "assault rifles" as well?

That could be better taken up in another topic thread, but it remains a bit unresolved to me if self-loading rifles (semi or auto) seem appropriate in their mid-range (100-250 meter) fire values either in relative "accuracy" or rather also in suppressive effect. Not that I can now make a compelling argument about this, still it's just a gut feeling for now.

[Tank Ace]

HOLY FRIGGIN CRAP! 6 PAGES? DAMN.

[The Green Rascal]

Thanks for the great read. Although one of the games was an exercise in the effectiveness of HMGs rather than SMGs, I would like to ask if the terrain type had a material influence on the battles with regards to SMG capability.

Town terrain seems like good SMG country to me, and I wonder if attacking them over farmland, light trees and small hills could lead to a different result?

[JasonC]

Towns are good SMG country. Woods are good SMG country. Hills are good SMG country (think "reverse slope, right behind the crest"). Even "small hills" will generally give enough in the way of crests, unless the map is tiny.

The only thing that isn't good SMG country is open ground. In open ground, take stealthy long ranged weapons - HMGs and light guns - and pin everything at 500m, giving only sound contacts in return. Protect them with trenches rather than the obvious small patches of trees.

Attacking in open ground is only easier if the attacker has a big armor edge, or has all the time in the world (to absorb ammo and crawl closer very gradually, rallying the whole way).

An infantry type that works whenever the defender actually has a potential problem is a highly effective infantry type. "He can get stone building cover, too, then I'll have no cover advantage to balance his odds". "He can get right next to me unobserved because of this hill I'm behind". "I won't see him until 30m in this forest" - these are *problems* for an outnumbered defender. SMGs make them opportunities.

[Tank Ace]

DAMN 7 PAGES!!!!! WOW!

[Michael Dorosh]

The final movie file at this URL.

Let me know if I need to zip it. It is the post game AAR screen.

Password is "cawley". If nothing else, you can walk over the terrain.

[petes-24]

Would you have played this game much differently in CMBO, given similar force dispositions? Any thoughts there for those of us just cutting our teath on (and enjoying) CMBO:SE, without the trenches, covered arcs, and MG effectiveness of CMBB?

[Michael Dorosh]