SMG platoons-excellence for defense

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

The question was to Dorosh, but I think I can answer it. Earlier, the Germans had been using half squads to cross open ground areas under observation by a modest number of Russian MGs. The idea being to split their fire, and to limit the number of men pinned in the open by it.

The actual assault was aimed at one of these MGs. He believed it to be suppressed by his own fire - he had a platoon's worth of infantry firing at it from about 150 yards, plus long range fire from an HMG or two. His assaulters were in the next building, within 20m but without immediate LOS. Between was a thin strip of open, 6-8m wide, before making it into the building with the MG.

He risked the MG not being suppressed at the moment he crossed into this open area. I suspect he did not want one lucky shot delivered at exactly that time to stop the assault. Instead he hoped at least one half squad would make it into the same building, and (if ranged fire hadn't pinned it already) pin the MG with grenades.

What happened instead is there were Russian SMGers waiting farther back inside the same large stone building as the MG. So far back in, they took none of the long ranged fire directed at the front corner, and there was no LOS to the assault building. There was LOS to the open ground strip. What then happened is some of the Germans made it into the building, but were shot up there by the SMGs, panicked, and tried to withdraw. They were finished off in the open strip.

As for the Russian gun, it has fired all of once. Since I don't know the exact level of info Dorosh has about it I will not say more.

I don't think I've received your last turn - if you've sent it, that is. I understand you were out of town, I just got back myself.

This is where a knowledge of the point system used to purchase forces/set up QBs would come in handy - ie knowing what forces the Russians have in play and thereby maximizing my resources to drawing the SMG units into play - or bypassing them, flanking them, & etc.

I found out yesterday what a "high feature" is - by humping my rifle, water, webbing, and rucksack up a 600 foot feature to set up an RRB (radio re-broadcast) with a signaller and an infantryman from my regiment. So I may not have the strength today to return the turn...(!) or update my little site. But I took tomorrow off to recover. If my underused muscles aren't too stiff to do anything else, that is...(ouch)...

[ October 19, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Gaylord Focker]

Let the battle continue JasonC!

After a brief pause in turn sending the battle rages on.

A German machine gun position is bombarded by HE and MG bursts, after a minute of relentless bombardment the enemy nest finds it prudent to take cover!

[mike_the_wino]

Gaylord I am no longer crazy busy at work, I sent you a turn, don't you owe me one?

[Tank Ace]

WHAT's THIS? MY THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED!!! AAHAAAAAAAA! 5 damn pages! i was expecting like 10 responses but not this! I was speaking of CMBO any way no CMBB.

[ October 19, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: TANK ACE ]

[JasonC]

Turn just sent, Mike. You said "I may not have the strength today", after your 600 ft climb. I ran the Indianapolis marathon yesterday. If I can send you can send lol.

Gaylord - I've got "jack in the box" MGs coming out of my ears, you haven't seen the half of it. And Ivan Sturmo seems to have "D"-ed after his rocket pass - guess he didn't like the Flak enough to stay and strafe.

Tank Ace - mu hue ha ha ha...

[ October 19, 2003, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Turn just sent, Mike. You said "I may not have the strength today", after your 600 ft climb. I ran the Indianapolis marathon yesterday. If I can send you can send lol.

I'd mention the 30 pound radios, but then again, I'd have to mention the two privates I ordered to carry them instead of me. I still don't think you ran the marathon with a rucksack, webbing, weapon, ammo and water though! :-P

Turn sent nonetheless....

[JasonC]

Going to turn 15 with Mike. The forward remainder of his left side assault attempt has been finished off. And two other units in the center were caught crossing a street by SMGs - one wiped out, the other running away.

With Gaylord, up to turn 10. German MGs continue to gum up his infantry in patches of open snow, while his own overwatch is now HMGs firing continuously. No further sign of the Russian air force.

[Spook]

I suppose it's just me, but I think that CAS is a bit odd as a "control variable" in regards to the effectiveness of SMG's in infantry firefights.

Yeah, it's just me.

The "tucking back" of SMG squads by Jason further within larger buildings is a very solid tactic; ensures close-range fire where the SMG squad is daunting (especially with increased firing rates), while screening out the attacker's longer-range suppressive fire, either small-arms or HE.

The best option of the attacker faced with such a premise is to rubble or flame the building, IF he has the means to do so. Or if having overwhelming numbers, then approach from multiple directions as that one SMG squad cannot all cover.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Spook:

Or if having overwhelming numbers, then approach from multiple directions as that one SMG squad cannot all cover.

Silly me; no HE or flame. I thought pioneers initially, but despaired of moving them over open ground. As it turned out, I could probably have moved them up quite handily - but the SMG teams would still be in the far side of the building and I wouldn't have enough flame points to torch all likely suspicious characters.

I think my only real chance at this point is to identify as quickly as possible how many SMG squads he has, and where exactly they might be. Even so, a look at the map on page 2 would show precious little room for maneuver; one of his SMG groups is nicely nestled to the north with the board edge comfortably nearby...

[Spook]

The torching of specific enemy units even in CMBB still just seems a bit dicey in its effect. Sometimes the target is indeed zapped, sometimes pinned or panicked, sometimes just nothing. I've never really developed a sense of proportion yet to each probability. A pioneer's DC's do seem to work better if they can close in.

Thus it MIGHT be better to area-fire the building with flamethrowers to get it started burning. Then it's a matter of if the building reaches another fire level to drive out its occupants (like "flushing out quail"), which is also very dicey; but multiple flame units might help this along.

Use of flame or DC's directly on a SMG unit works if there's some other (sacrificial?) friendly unit on hand soaking up the bullets.

[JasonC]

Sturmoviks aren't much of a counter to SMG infantry. You pay your arty point budget for one, and it will certainly hurt something with its bomb and rocket passes. In this case, presence of Flak prevented it from doing more by perpetual strafing.

If there had been no Flak, it might have suppressed the defenders and stopped movements in the open for the first half of the fight. Which would have been useful, certainly, but not any specific counter to SMGs. To pay for it, though, you basically forego heavy indirect HE, which is a real counter to them, if placed on the blocks of cover they try to hold.

I think a lesser FB with numerous strafe chances, for half the cost, is a better bet. If there isn't Flak you will get the same temporary paralysis. But you only gamble half your arty budget on it. All air support is a risk, but betting the whole arty budget on 1 Sturm strikes me as a gamble instead.

But Gaylord was free to try anything he thought would work. He chose air along with ranged direct fire heavy weapons, to support an infantry advance. I can't say it seems to be going very well. Not that I think I've hurt him seriously, but I've delayed him and he hasn't made much progress in the first half of the game.

Which comes to the next point, countering defending MGs. I spoke of the role of SMGs in a defense as "concentrated essence of infantry". But part of the whole idea is that MGs work extremely well for the ranged portion of a defense, even without added infantry help, and even without terribly high point investment.

Gaylord has been wrestling with a number of MGs for half the time limit, and has had platoons stopped in open snowfields several times. One made it to the next wood, only to see the same thing happen to its supporting "buddy" next in line. Another trying a different avenue of approach has had outliers stopped the same way, while making it to a different area of trees.

Overall, he has not fully managed to approach the near side of the main center hill. Let alone get up the hill, over it, and to the flags beyond. He has softened me up somewhat, certainly, with all his overwatch fire and with his air support. But his infantry main body is separated in three locations with open ground between, all still shy of the center hill.

With a different choice of route he might have had them all, together, up the near slope already - though perhaps to a more prepared reception. He has not found it trivial to deal with just the MGs, along the route he did choose.

Michael faced similar problems in the first portion of his fight. His mortar smoke mission provided a partial solution for the first few minutes. But there are still Russian MGs in operation, shooting up targets as far back as his initial start line (when he tried to reposition his own MGs). He took out 2 LMG teams in the center, at the edge of town - after 10 minutes of fighting. He suppressed one other MG position and tried to assault it to finish it off - and ran into the SMG "rear building" tactic.

The role of the SMG tactic in that was not at all as the known problem he was trying to solve when he prepared to hit that particular building. He was trying to "blind" the MG - ranged portion of the Russian defense on that side, not to clear a known SMG held block. He sent squad infantry under cover fire because that was the obvious tactic to use against an isolated MG position.

Spook is right about it being difficult to dig SMGs out of stone buildings, especially positioned deep inside them. Last turn Michael saw what can happen when the SMGs are up at the front windows instead of back in the rear ones. They snaked a diagonal LOS to a street crossing between two buildings, that Michael probably thought was safe because he'd already sent one unit across.

The SMGs just lengthened their arcs and restricted them to the open cross street. One MG sighted down a long approach street helped. For minimal ammo expenditure at briefly exposed men, they got two units (one dead one routed). They did not draw any reply, yet anyway.

Now, when you know there are SMGs in a given block, what do you do about it? As Spook suggests, you can rubble or flame the building, if you have the tools for it. Michael does not appear to have those tools. His HE support seems to have been limited to 2 81mm FOs - apparently intended mostly for smoke. He does not appear to have pioneers, unless he is saving them for something special. Everything I've seen fully IDed has been Jager 42.

Pioneers can clobber a building from across the street, provided they get into their own building by a safe, covered route. Demos can go 30m and German flame slightly longer. They have even less reach than SMGs, however, which are lethal at twice that range. And they work best from across a street, not advancing into the same building, as the pioneers basically need to be unsuppressed for it to work.

Heavy HE can clobber a building from clear across the map. There are three main means of delivery. A heavy FO is expensive and a bit of a bludgeon. 170s and 210s can be slow to adjust. 150s are flexible enough for it, and still have the punch to hurt heavy stone buildings - but are expensive. Ammo is limited with any of them and occasional friendly fire "shorts" are a serious problem - unless you use the stuff at range. In the latter case the problem is knowing exactly where the SMGs are. You can prep or planned fire it, but at the risk of missing the right buildings.

With an armored force, you can try big HE chuckers - StuHs for example. (Much more survivable than the Hummels and Bisons etc). Those work, but must deal with ATG ambush. Which the defender can be expected to draw you towards. Still it is the most flexible means, just not always available. Also, reverse slope deployments of various kinds can limit LOS.

The same is also true with the cheaper towed gun way of delivering heavy HE. In addition you have to worry about light mortar counters. You can't tell where HQs may be, spotting for 1-2 of those. But you can bet a wide LOS location for you, able to hit many defender locations, can be seen by one if he has them. So you trade off this risk (of rapid KO after you first fire) with a limited number of visible targets (if you keyhole your guns).

All of these things work against regular LMG and rifle infantry as well as SMGs. Ranged rifle fire is not going to save a platoon position from a StuH, or a distant infantry gun. It is true LMGs and rifles can pin pioneers sooner, but those need a covered route to get from 70m down to 30m anyway - and a few MGs can gum them up in wider open areas at least as easily.

Would I recommend just trying to overwhelm SMGs in a stone building by using superior numbers and approaching from multiple directions? No. Not against an unsuppressed position. You do not know if it is one squad or a whole platoon of the suckers. If you are wrong, you can easily lose the bulk of a company inside of 2 minutes.

If you have to use infantry, a better bet is to get angles to streets that cut off the building in question. Then try to move by covered routes to 2-3 buildings that can see the target from multiple sides. If you can't because it is part of an unbroken line, you do not yet have any business assaulting into that building.

If you can, then have full platoons overwatch across the street, and send in one squad or half squad. You may well lose it, certainly. If your overwatch can see, you should break a lone defender. If it can't, find a building the will be able to and shift laterally to it, then try again.

Take ground by fire dominance, sending bullets not masses of bodies. Against a lone MG or "long fire-fight reduced" rifle infantry you might think about mass attacks into their location. Against SMGs it is not worth the risk. Better yet (if it isn't an actual flag location) isolate by fire lanes down the streets and then bypass. SMGs deep inside a building will not hold the surrounding areas very well.

I'm willing to try reverse scenarios, as long as I can pick the attacking forces. And in the case of the Gaylord fight, keeping the same map (it is a unique sort of map, with its large center hill). Same or different for the Stalingrad era fight, as the opponent likes. My attack methods will be quite different than those I've seen, in the two cases.

[ October 20, 2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[General Bolt]

Gentlemen,

This has been the most fascinating and educational thread I have read yet at this site.

The two things I learned are don't doubt Jason C's knowledge and sure as hell don’t challenge him to a CM duel.

[JasonC]

Well, it is not over yet, DB. I don't think Michael has time enough left to pull his out, though he has made it "downtown" now. But Gaylord still has half his time remaining. He just blew up one building on the crest of the hill with his overwatch, and his infantry are getting closer. Though another set got hit in open snow again this turn and sent to ground.

[Michael Dorosh]

I've updated my site through to Turn 12; http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/cawley/aarcawley4.htm

Not in as much detail, but a nice look at the SMG ambush for those who want to see the "film at 11"...

[Spook]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I've updated my site through to Turn 12; http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/cawley/aarcawley4.htm

Not in as much detail, but a nice look at the SMG ambush for those who want to see the "film at 11"...

This time I could link in.....

NOW I know what the other onlookers were saying about the map graphics. (MUST.... KEEP.... MOUTH.... SHUT.... BUT.... VERY.... HARD.... TO.... DO.....!!!!!!!)

However, the added OOB listings and updates to unit status is a very impressive job. DAMNED impressive, conveys the key information & detail very effectively. Should be a standard for AAR formats used by others.

[David Chapuis]

I, for one, think the graphics are just fine. At least it is very easy to see the elevation changes.

How do you keep those MG's from getting blasted with HE and still give them lanes to fire? Is there a some handy tip you could offer, or does it just take skill? My MG's seem to either not do much of anything, or get blasted to oblivion (that was in CMBO - have yet to try a defense in CMBB - always got slaughtered)

[JasonC]

MGs are much stealthier in CMBB than in CMBO. They also pin infantry moving in the open much more readily. If your ideas about what MGs can do date from CMBO days, you have to try them in CMBB. They are now an entirely different - and much more realistic - arm.

HE is a good counter to MGs, particularly direct fire HE. You need someone close enough for a full ID spot, though, or you have to fire at sound contacts, which is much harder. Also, towed guns in particular typically have LOS limits that good MG placement can exploit. Light mortars are easy to maneuver close, but lack hitting power, particularly against buildings.

You want positions that can see open ground areas the attackers are likely to cross, but can't see too much more. Diagonals, reverse slopes, keyholes, crossing patterns - all can create a net of MG fire over open ground that infantry will find it hard to get through, without allowing every heavy weapon in the attacking force to light you up in reply.

In Michael's case he didn't have much HE to counter the Russian MGs with. He used his arty budget for mortars, for smoke. His ranged overwatch came from his own MGs. While those work well against exposed targets, from range and against defenders in stone buildings they can't do much on their own. They can maintain a level of pin achieved by other means, but not much more than that.

I also used repositioning to alter the area covered by some of my MGs. I put several in the second row of buildings in the town - not the first, to limit LOS back to them. High up initially. Then they looked out one corner or another, around one side or the other of the building immediately in front of them. They switched from side to side, from front corner to farther back, in one case from top floor to ground floor.

All in response to incoming fire - to break up fire groups that had formed to counter them - or to cover a portion of the field the enemy had reached or was about to reach. One MG was "keyholed" down a long street, with a field of view only 20m wide at my end, perhaps 100m wide out in the field. It served to split the attackers right to left. The extra range increased its stealth and reduced any incoming small arms fire.

In the case of Gaylord, he brought more heavy weapons for overwatch and has made extensive use of them. It has been a running duel - my MGs against his infantry as they expose themselves in open ground areas, his heavy weapons going after them in turn. I keep some ready to cover important areas and dole out the level of exposure I accept.

Slowly. Delay delay delay. It is now turn 16 in our game and he's got a platoon and change to the front side of the hill. Half of them crawling in, eating snow the last 40m to cover, probably tired from advancing and sneaking. More than half haven't made it even that far. He's got 5 turns left. Is he going to get so much infantry over the hill, in such good order, united, that he can just roll over my own infantry?

If he had forever to rally, perhaps. He's got (now) 5 more minutes...

With time now running low, he has everybody still back area firing away at whatever they can, as another platoon rushes. An MG still firing sends 3 units to the deck - again.

[ October 21, 2003, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[GreenAsJade]

I can't believe the detail and effort going into these AARs! You guys are unbelievable: this is great!

[HarryInk]

Stumbled onto this thread tonight and much appreciate the effort Dorosh, JasonC, and Gaylord Focker have gone into in producing these AARs. Special thanks to MD for the ace site and JasonC for the analysis (yep...I'm a fanboy of many previous dollops of good JC advice). Feel very encouraged to continue, good gents.

[zukkov]

excellent thread. love the aar's. i have to say though the parameters make it very tough for the attacker to achieve victory. but i think jc's made his point. smg's are very good at defending a small area. personally i'm ready for the situations to be reversed and see how jc handles the attack. anyway, thanks much to jc, md, and gf for the aars!

[Gaylord Focker]

The battle rages on....as a German squad readies to fire on the methodically advancing Soviets, the sound of a lone rifle is heard echoing across the open ground, and the enemy squad hits the deck, possibly to tend to it's wounded.

A German machine gun nest atop the center hill overlooks the field and is firing at will. Numerous attempts to silence the stubborn machine gun crew have failed, though this may be the turn they decide to retreat to safer ground.

[Gaylord Focker]

The Yatzis appear to have the Sovyets boggled.

One last radio transmission is is sent of a Guards Division for tanks to back up the most Socialist advance to crush all resistance but alas the situation appears brutile.

[ October 21, 2003, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Gaylord Focker ]

[JasonC]

That means there are 3 minutes left and the German MGs are still operating. Only a few shots last turn, but firing. The Russians have put a few rounds of smoke on the center hill. Perhaps 3 platoons, one on the German left and two on the center-left, have reached the front slopes of the hill. In the case of the latter group, a couple of minutes ago, so with some time to breath or push on. But none have yet made it to the top of the hill, let alone approached the flags on the right and left rear slopes.

Incidentally, Gaylord has passed Mike in turns finished. Well done sir, thanks for the speedy game so far.

Now neck and neck. Both have sent me turn 18 and received my replies. In the fight with Mike, last turn saw a significant escalation of fire across the streets in the city center. A few broken Germans falling back, but many others still in the central buildings. A Russian gun has been peppering one of them.

[ October 22, 2003, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[Nero's Cat]

Superb thread - thanks guys.

Hope the 'Jason C on the attack' scenario becomes a reality too!

[JasonC]

On the final turn with Gaylord. Some of his men are barely cresting the hill, but still quite far from the objectives. A solid half of his force is 200m from even the base of the hill. A few rounds of German arty are now landing on the hilltop.

Only a few minutes left with Michael as well. Last turn was rather brutal. A German platoon was caught just as it tried to shift from one large stone building to another, by Russians just stepping up to the front windows from deeper in the destination building. The whole group was wiped out, at ranges from 5 to 15 meters.

Meanwhile Russian arty is falling on the building in the middle of town already reached by the Germans, with misses landing in the streets all around. And the Russian gun continued its fire. One large building the German had been using just collapsed into an enourmous plume of dust and smoke.