Sailor Malan Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Ah, the old 'CMXX is inaccurate, my Pzkw t26H Sturmstalin hits too often, not often enough, and misses shots, all at the same time' thread. Sources please gentlemen. Trusted historical sources. Or at least range tests with a statistically significant number of engagements, before we go down this road again. Search for threads on Tiger 1 accuracy in CMBO if you want to know what happens next... Oh yes, and SP, much as it is quite a nice game, does not count as a reference. RoF in SP models lots of things, not just RoF (e.g. morale, sighting, command delays, etc etc etc.) [ January 21, 2003, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Sailor Malan ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I havent played with the KV-2 much, but if the figures Redwolf gave are correct, then Im surprised. in RL the KV-2 couldnt even turn it's turret if standing on a slope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catacol Highlander Posted January 21, 2003 Author Share Posted January 21, 2003 Sailor You miss the point... I am not complaining about the accuracy of the KV2 - from my perspective it is an observed reality after seeing it operate a number of times now. I will learn to adapt to it and that is that. No - I am asking everyone where this accuracy comes from. I am surprised, not outraged and simply wondered whether anyone else shared this and if anyone knew about the mechanics of aiming it at a specific moving target bearing in mind the size of the gun and the velocity of the shell. However as you speak of sources and tests I will endeavour to run some this week and provide those interested with my findings. Cheers Al 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Malan Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by Alastair Anderson: Sailor You miss the point... I am not complaining about the accuracy of the KV2 - from my perspective it is an observed reality after seeing it operate a number of times now. I will learn to adapt to it and that is that. No - I am asking everyone where this accuracy comes from. I am surprised, not outraged and simply wondered whether anyone else shared this and if anyone knew about the mechanics of aiming it at a specific moving target bearing in mind the size of the gun and the velocity of the shell. However as you speak of sources and tests I will endeavour to run some this week and provide those interested with my findings. Cheers AlYou may not be complaining, but others will (and are already). For your range test, why not compare the KV2 with something else, say t34, or KV1? (Because the real question is 'is the KV2 more or less accurate than other Russians?' [ January 21, 2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Sailor Malan ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I experienced this horror: A KV-2, moving along a slope, up slope, turns its turret to point up slope (in other words, it is pitched up slope about 15 degrees, and is yawed to one side about the same, and rotates the turret to point up the slope it is yawed on), targets a HT on a crestline, fires one shot, gets direct hit, blows up the HT, the 37mm gun it was towing, a kubelwagen behind the ridge, and a squad gets decimated. The KV-2 takes note that it killed the target, rotated its turret back inline with the hull, and proceeded on its course. I am of the opinion that the KV-2 should be an SP gun with a limited traverse. Turretted in real life, yes, but so massive, that the slope it was on would bind the turret, at least that is what I have read. Other gamers have reported it to me. It seems that a Ruskie gamey thing to do in 1941 Quick-Battles in the 1200 point range is to buy one KV-2 and one T-34. The German player can't handle it. Really, if the KV-2 could do what it does in CMBB, the Ruskies should of kept it in production. Its a ISU-152 with a turret! [ January 21, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Wilhammer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 All I am saying is that I am surprised that the hit probabilities are that high when comparing the 152mm (AP and HE) to the 990 m/sec 57mm AT gun. Since hit probabilities in CM are largely based on the muzzle velocity, my assuptionw as that the difference should be big, not the small differences in probabilities I quoted in my first posts (37% to 40% etc.).. Snippy side note: What is that "if redwolf's posted numbers are correct" business about? Am I the only one capable of loading CMBB and checking out the hit probablities displayed in the LOS tool? Even max lazyness assumed and hence no own testing, how can anybody assume I am too stupid to type down three numbers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: Snippy side note: What is that "if redwolf's posted numbers are correct" business about? Am I the only one capable of loading CMBB and checking out the hit probablities displayed in the LOS tool? Even max lazyness assumed and hence no own testing, how can anybody assume I am too stupid to type down three numbers?I dunno, maybe you were on LSD while checking the number No, your not the only one that can load it up and check, but most people wont or cant at the time they browse the BBS. Anyways, thanks for the effort you put in Redwolf, Ive seen many a interesting point being raised by you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Panzer 76 writes: "in RL the KV-2 couldnt even turn it's turret if standing on a slope." Same goes (I recall) for the KT and the early M10 TD in U.S. service (badly unbalanced turrets)! I wonder which tanks out there liked and didn't like rotating the turret around on an 8 degree slope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Wilhammer - Bill, this horror wouldn't have occured against a Swedish chap by any chance would it? I have finished my battle with him and got a 95% Total Victory, losing 5 men and killing 171. I blew up his T-34's with Panzers (side and front turret shots) and got the KV-2 with a barrage of Grenade Bundles A brilliant result against that kind of opposition in 8/41, but in the rematch he's chosen to buy three KVs plus another T-34 spotted so far this time (he did the setup and chose Unrestricted 1,500 points just to make sure he could get plenty ) I might have to give up on this one before I start, no amount of tactical genius is going to stop that lot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Yeah, Rex, that's the guy! Good victory on your part. Now, I owe you that game. Man, wish I had another Christmas break, our games were a blast! Damned work... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Don't give in yet Rex. A couple lucky shots and you are in there. Plus losing with vastly inferior forces is no shame while winning with them is the height of glory. (Are you pepped up now? ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 The gamey counter to KV-2 is, I believe, the Flammpanzer. You have to get close, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by redwolf: Am I the only one capable of loading CMBB and checking out the hit probablities displayed in the LOS tool?You're it, man. Don't let us down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Heh - thanks for the words of encouragement but I can't see how I have a chance of stopping them. Last time I got the KV2 because it was foolishly driven unescorted onto an objective containing a small patch of woods and a (rather obvious I thought) platoon of my infantry. One Area Fire round into it before he came near it would have routed the lot. I'm sure that wont happen again, and the biggest AT gun I have is a 76mm which can't touch them. I did consider an 88mm based on my previous battle, but BFC have decided to class them as Immobile which makes them virtually useless in Attacks and MEs. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a prime AT gun site covering objectives within your small setup zone, you can't deploy them anywhere, aside from where a gun tractor could directly drop them off (ie wide open ground). I hadn't considered a Flammpanzer, that's a good tip. Maybe next time if they are available. But a half decent player will win with KV-2s in 1941 every time. It's virtually invulnerable, can clear large areas of land with area fire, and eats tanks for breakfast as well. An 88 in a Defense scenario is the only thing it really needs to fear if handled properly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 20x green 20mm FlaK takes care of the KV-2 problem nicely. You can drive the 88 guns around when you hook them up to a gun tractor in setup. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Yeah I know you can drive them around if you hook them up, but you can only deploy them where the Gun Tractor can physically drive. So it's got to be open terrain, and the big gun will be spotted immediately and killed in short order. Anyway I've just tried using a KV-2 for the very first time myself. Although it was against the AI it killed 4 Pz35Ts, 2 PSW 222s, 2 Flak trucks, and 111 infantry. Those explosions when it took out the Panzers sure were spectacular. No wonder people love them. I think a points hike of - oh say around 400% - should begin to redress the balance 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Originally posted by Rex_Bellator: Yeah I know you can drive them around if you hook them up, but you can only deploy them where the Gun Tractor can physically drive. So it's got to be open terrain, and the big gun will be spotted immediately and killed in short order. I haven't tried it yet, but I think the gun is dropped off a few meters behind the gun tractor (about where you see it while embarked on realistic scale), so it should be possible to reverse the gun tractor close to some woods and drop off into them. Has anybody tested this? Of course, not getting blown away while unlimbering is another story... Dschugaschwili 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 All I can say is in this game the KV2 is awesome, I have had it hit my PzIVEs and stugs from waaayyy off and watched them Explode!! Those babies are the kings of the batlefields, not the Tigers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 Originally posted by rune: Jeff, That is a fallacy. The Russian manual on that gun BANS the use of the AP shell with that gun. Sources include the Russian Battlefield website and the Red Army Handbook. It was one of the things that caught be by surprise. I quote: "Despite some modern "sources", the usage of armor-piercing or anti-concrete was prohibited - it was recorded in the KV-2 operational manual." Rune Actually The Russian Battlefield is talking about AP and anti-concrete rounds, not SAP. The M10 did indeed employ this particular piece of ordnance, as well as AP and Anti-Concrete rounds. The US Army translated numerous WWII Soviet Firing tables following the war. One Being FT-F-152-2 (FT-F-27) Foreign Firing Tables for Soviet Howitzer, 152mm, M-10. Ballistic tables are indicated for: Fragmentation HE Long Range Steel Projectile, Fragmentation Long Range Iron Projectile, COncrete Piercing Gun Projectile, Concrete Piercing Howitzer Projectile, Armor Piercing Tracer Projectile, and Semi-Armored Piercing Projectile. Ordnance Intelligence, US ARMY Ordnance Corps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted January 24, 2003 Share Posted January 24, 2003 They translated that manual, whioch refers to the M10 howitzer, and NOT the shortened version that the KV-2 used. The entire paragraph from Russian Military Zne states: During the production, the tank's turret was slightly improved and additional DT Machine-Gun was mounted in it. The shortened M-10 Howitzer was able to fire a 52-kg high-explosive projectile with muzzle velocity of 436 m/s. Please notice, only high-explosive shells with reduced propellant charge were used for KV-2's gun. The naval semi-AP round model 1915/28 was alloed to be fired of KV-2, but that round used only in Red Navies and was absent in Red Army's warehouses. Despite some modern "sources", the usage of armor-piercing and anti-concrete ammunition was prohibited - it was recorded in the KV-2's operational manual. The Army didn't even have the SAP round. Trust me, we went over this very well with Valera and he pulled some Russian documentation. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Originally posted by Panzer76: ... in RL the KV-2 couldnt even turn it's turret if standing on a slope.From what I've understood it could, sort of. The turret was back heavy, so it wanted to point the gun up slope. I suppose it was possible to turn the turret in that direction. To be able to do a full rotation I recall the maximum hull slope allowed was about two degrees from horisontal. Cheers Olle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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