PAK's in the streets

[Aco4bn187inf]

I have a book (War Without Garlands by Robt Kershaw) that shows a German early war tactic of using AT guns, pushed by their crews, in the streets of villages or towns to support advancing infantry. The halftracks stay out of the town. I'm sure we've all seen lots of photos also of PAK's in the streets of towns.

My question is- isn't it extremely risky to bring guns into a town, rolling them around in the open streets? What I read suggests that they were not there primarily for use against tanks, but to shell enemy infantry in buildings. Seems like any maxim in the neighborhood could cause them to be abandoned pretty quick...

[Metto]

PAK's have an armored shield against bullets.

[Sergei]

I don't know how effective the 37mm ATG would really have been against infantry in buildings, I guess you could have used it to snipe MG positions in windows. And you can use them from distances where MG fire has less effect.

In 1941 on an occasion Finns used their 37mm guns towed by trucks in a fire and movement type scheme along a forest road. While one gun was towed forward, the other laid covering fire, and the road was quickly cleared. Determined defence would of course have spelled disaster, but in real war the defenders are not always determined. In this case it was known that the enemy were untrained militia who would be easy to rout.

[With Clusters]

Hey, I just watched BoB for the first time recently (Yeah, I know, what took me so long? Well, I live overseas, that's why). In the episode (3 or 4, maybe?) where they were clearing a villiage of Falschimjaagers (sp?) somewhere in Cherebourg (sp?), the Germans used what looked like some sort of PAK in the streets, albiet firing what looked like some sort of attached rocket grenade thingy (knocked Donnie Whalberg accross the street). Lord knows you have to take anything "Hollywood" with a large grain of salt, but what was that?

[Sergei]

Do a search for "stielgranate". A HEAT warhead for 37mm PaK, it's in CMBB.

[With Clusters]

Ah, there it is. Thanks for the heads up, Sergei!

So, aside from its temporary effectiveness against Wahlbergs, apparently it is not intended for urban anti-infantry fighting? They must have just had one in the pipe, and couldn't resist shooting it at Donnie (entirely understandable - I hated NKOTB too)

[flamingknives]

It's a big, fat hollow charge. The range is short, but it enables a 37mm ATG to make holes in a KV1

[Brent Pollock]

The oddest thing I found with that BoB scene was that I figured by June '44, there would've been precious few:

1. 37 mm PaK;

2. stielgranate rounds for same.

Ya gotta figure that a FJ unit would've rated at least a 50 mm PaK. It was probably all they could find for the re-enactment.

[lucero1148]

just to add my 2 cents in, but I remember that scene and I'm willing to bet that wasn't a 37mm AT or a Stielgranate. I'm more inclined to say it was a 88mm rocket launcher mounted on a carriage. Don't remember the official name but its essentially the panzerschrek round fired from a wheeled launcher. The benefit being it has a longer effective range than the schrek (500 meters vs 180m).

cheers

Patrick

[Bogdan]

...oh no, I don't think so !

Even if the scene in BoB is quite short, the general shape of the gun is easely recognizable. I'm almost sure it's a 37mm PAK, with the HC round "stielgranate".

If I remember correctly, the scene just after the shot shows the entire german crew withdrawing to a safer place (say 6 - 10 men), running and towing the little gun with'em.

It's difficult for me to imagine men running with a "88mm rocket launcher" (you're not talking about a Püppchen, are you ?) under enemy fire... However, 37mm PaK crews often manned and moved the gun in combat.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

The oddest thing I found with that BoB scene was that I figured by June '44, there would've been precious few:

1. 37 mm PaK;

2. stielgranate rounds for same.

Ya gotta figure that a FJ unit would've rated at least a 50 mm PaK. It was probably all they could find for the re-enactment.

But a 50mm PaK wouldn't have been as mobile in that role. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that they might have been using an obsolete 37mm PaK as a heavy infantry weapon.

[coldmeter]

this should answer the question

Link

Cold

[Sergei]

...especially considering that with HEAT it could penetrate any tank in the Allied arsenal, although hitting targets was hard and reloading under fire very hard. How common were they in Normandy is a different matter, but I would guess that it having been a silent sector until June 6th there would have been lots of obsolete equipment lying around (such as the French tanks), more so than in east.

[Keith]

I have read that the 37mm AT gun and the 50mm AT guns became quite useful in the hedgerow fighting because they could be manhandled into position, whereas the heaver AT guns had to be limbered and were restricted to where the transportation could go.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Finns preferred 50mm AT guns to bigger ones for that very reason. Finns would have bought 50mm guns rather than 75mm ones, as in practice 75mm AT guns could not be moved in Finnish terrain. lot's of 75mm AT guns were lost just because you couldn't take them with you once things got too hot.

[Denwad]

I love buying Pak-36's for ~40 points, if it can take out just one enemy tank it's great.

They're awesome for taking out heavy tanks with HEAT and they can attack light scout cars with AP rounds.

[Sirocco]

If the FJ unit in Carentan was the unit forming in Brittany at the time of the landings it might give a possible explanation for the obsolete weaponry.

[Ant]

To go back to the original question of PAK 37s being used in an anti-infantry role in urban environments, I have seen real wartime footage of at least one occasion when a PAK 37 was used that way.

As Sergei said, it didn't seem very impressive to me. No explosion and seemingly very little fragmetation, just a fair bit of brick dust and a small hole in the wall. Even the gunners looked less than impressed with the results. Nevertheless, if you've got nothing else at hand to do the job with I suppose it would be better than nothing.

[YankeeDog]

While a 37mm PaK certainly isn't going to be a building wrecker, IRL it might be more useful against enemy soldiers holded up in building than we're giving it credit for.

It's not the effect outside of the walls of the building that matters, it's the effects on the inside. Brick, Stone and Wood are all highly frangible, and a high-velocity round going through a wall made of any of these materials is probably going to cause a lot of secondary fragments on the other side. In fact, against a heavy brick or stone building you might be better off using AP rather than HE ammo.

Again, it certainly wouldn't be a miracle weapon, but IRL I wouldn't be surprised if infantry found small PaK pretty useful in urban environments. They would be fairly easy to get into position using only manpower, and while they certainly aren't going to knock down a heavy building, they could at least drive any enemy inside away from the exterior walls. This would make it easier for infantry to get close enough to the building to place a demo charge or close assault.

Obviously, the best option would be a tank with a big @ss gun that could just blow up the building, but clearing urban areas was often left to infantry units with little or no armored support while the valuable armored units continued to push the advance.

Actually, one of the things I'm really hoping to see in CMX2 is more complex modeling of the effects of various weapons against enemy in different kinds of cover. For example, IRL the MG42 is probably more effective against troops in the open or soft cover than a .50 HMG. However, the .50's rounds can punch right through all but the heaviest building walls so I'm guessing that the .50 would be relatively more effective against enemy holed up in medium to heavy buildings than a rifle caliber MG like the MG42.

Cheers,

YD

[flamingknives]

According to the 'Combat Lessons' series of pamphlets, US troops in Italy and the Far East were very complimentary about their 37mm ATG in the direct fire support role.

[MikeyD]

The Germans had all sorts of odd stuff stacked up along the 'atlantic wall' , and if your unit's faced with the choice of hiding a 37mm pak in the hedges or no gun at all, you'd probably happily go with the mini-pak.

Also don't forget the 37mm does have HE so they're not as useless as the Brit 2 pdr (for example) for close infantry support.

[Denwad]

even the AP round had an HE filler

[Andy C]

You should not forget the psychological impact of the weapon. Being under fire stretches ones nerves to their limits having someone shoot a cannon in your direction, no matter how small, would make a great impression on your psyche.

[JasonC]

Why are they in the streets? Because a gun on wheels can actually be maneuvered at close to walking speed on a flat, level surface. They wouldn't be "very slow" as they are in CM - more like "medium" - on a road, only. Whereas, take them off road or (especially) try to take them through serious cover (rather than concealment terrain) and they would be very slow indeed. In CM, the cover benefit is there, but the real speed gains from staying on a road aren't.

Also, in CM it takes longer to set them up again after a move than it would in real life. This is meant to account for things like moving the ammo. True enough for a long engagement, but the gun could fire from the new position without really needing 2 minutes to set up - more like the same 30 second time periods HMGs have in CMBB and AK.

Why in urban terrain in particular? Because a round that goes through walls is actually considerably more useful in real life than in CM. Wood walls will only stop pistol ammo (including SMGs). Brick and stone will stop rifle and ordinary MG ammo. But won't stop a 37mm or 45mm PAK round. Those will also produce some secondary fragmentation without even using HE, just from the wall punched through itself.

So the use would be, roll down a street, set up rapidly for a few shots, and fire at e.g. an MG position in a brick building - one already IDed by the infantry. Preferably from a long way away down a broad avenue, if available. They aren't looking for big bang or structural damage. They are shooting at the men manning a machinegun with a PAK rather than a sniper rifle, because it has comparable range but also punches through walls.

The Russians used their 45mm ATGs in a similar fashion, mandhandling them everywhere to support the infantry by direct fire.

One should also understand that in many situations, forces try to stay rather farther away from each other than you see in CM. CM battles pushed down to point blank range until one side is annihilated, were rare in WW II. Most of the time one side or the other retreated before things got that bloody. Plenty of fighting happened over extended periods of time at much longer ranges, out of effective small arms range. Sniping at occasional exposed men with heavy weapons - mortars firing just a handful of rounds, sniper rifles, single bursts from heavy MGs at long range. And direct fire by towed guns. Yes, even at single men.

[junk2drive]

jasonc, nice to see you post again.