Motorcycles on the attack! Insight sought

[John Kettler]

After finally getting THE BATTLE OF KURSK (Glantz & House), and grinding my way through what I find a pretty dry text and hard to read maps (black on anthracite), I found a stunner (p. 191. I believe). The stunner? The Germans formed a shock group, (~100 tanks, a motorized infantry regiment, a few SP guns, and as many as 200 motorcycles!) and used it to storm Hill 226. That must've been a sight to see.

Nor is such use confined to the Germans, for starting around page 200, I read about Soviet motorcycle regiments and smaller formations being committed to counterattacks.

Needless to say, these examples seem to fly in the face of the "party line" here on motorcycles in combat and why we don't have any. Would love to know how these formations fought, especially considering that there is zero mention made of dismounted action by them. Anyone know?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Philippe]

I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan.

Standard motorcylce assault tactics involve several score hogs slowly circling the target, which is then subjected to a desultory barrage of outlandish visuals and strange remarks. The motorcyles pull up alongside the target, but are careful to block any nearby entrances in order to suppress unexpected arrivals. Engines are revved sequentially in a kind of fugue -- the sound alone is usually enough to secure the area. Passengers then dismount and swagger carefully inside -- carefully so as not to damage their costumes. After drinking beer for a few hours, belching repeatedly, and covering the target with smoke, they clamber back onto their hogs and wobble off into the night. Some of them never made it past Canal Street.

You won't find any descriptions of this in the war literature, because nobody involved was likely to remember what happened the next day. I guess on the Eastern front they must have had to settle for kvass.

[Soddball]

ROTFLMAO! Good source, Philippe. Have you got any pictures of the Baby Doll Lounge?

I ask purely from an academic slant, obviously.

[John Kettler]

Philippe,

Too funny! Deserves to be in the all time greatest post thread.

Soddball,

Years ago a buddy of ours (my group of friends) who was moving out of the area wanted to go to a certain bar in the worst way. Since it was his swan song, we decided to humor him. Certainly didn't humor us. Biker bar to the max, and we looked like midgets in civvies! I still remember seeing the bar from across the room. Okay. I couldn't see the bar because the area where it presumably was was completely obscured by a wall of huge leather clad torsos, arms and shoulders (no heads, hunkered down). To add insult to injury, our friend just had to play darts--with the motorcycle equivalent of Goliath! Instructions to our friend were terse and highly specific: "whatever you do, don't piss him off." Dart game concluded, we exited just as the motorcyclists belatedly became generally aware of our presence and began to glower. We counted ourselves lucky to have gotten out in one piece.

___________________________________________________

The anecdotes are great, but does anyone actually have any pertinent information to offer concerning

the original post?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Panzer76]

I have a reference from "Great Battles of the Waffen SS" where the Germans used Recon troops off Motorcycles to good effect, I wonder if it was from Kursk also, Ill see if I can dig it up later.

[MikeyD]

I suspect motorcycles were used to get a useable number of men from point A to point B FAST for tactical surprise, then the motorcycles were ditched and the battle fought normally on foot (like Swiss bicycle soldiers). In CM I suppose you could post a reinforcement flag during scenario design and assume the men who suddenly appear had driven there by bike. A German motorcycle storming a Russian strongpoint "Mad Max"-style has about a much chance of survival as a bunch of motorcyclists trying the same stunt in Mosul today.

[Jack Carr]

Philippe,

A good read. Thanks for the laugh!

[Dandelion]

John,

I am no surprised by the statement in your source. Germany made extensive use of motorcycles (and bicycles) throughout the war. There were motorcycle units, and units using motorcycles as substitutes for other vehicles in short supply. In armoured divisions, most of the recon battallion would be motorcycle borne until late in the war. Motorised infantry units that had no trucks could on occasion use motorcycles instead, and of course at all levels of command you'd find a couple (or quite a few) motorcycles for messenger duty. So lots of bikes around at all times and if a force needed to be lifted on wheels for rapid redeployment, bikes would perhaps be a easily fetched mean of transport.

But as Mike points out, these were not combat vehicles. Only tanks, TDs and some SPGs were actually ever considered combat vehicles suitable for high intensity combat environments. Other vehicles were supposed to be left outside such areas. Like trucks, bicycles and horses, motorcycles were used for transport, the men entering known contacts on foot. In fact, halftracks were also usually left behind, with the Panzergrenadiers also normally entering combat on foot.

You will find exceptions. In the KTB of the 12th SS there is a scene where the Germans attempt a ruse, and charge on motorcycles into an enemy position. This had worked fine in Greece in 1941, it is claimed, which was the last encounter with UK units that the commanders knew (Meyer and Wünsche as it was). But in Normandy it all ended in a bloodbath (Germans doing the dying), and the Division realised their enemy had matured beyond base bluff. In the battle of Arnhem, a German platoon of the 9th SS also tries to rush a position on motorcycles, with the same end result.

I myself would have loved to have motorcycles in the game. As I recall it, it was merely a question of limited capacity at the time, and in the fight for space in the game, bikes could never compete with the most common AFV designs.

I also miss the Schwimmwagen and Kettenkrad. Not very important for the war effort, but lending that certain air to things.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Philippe:

I think I can comment on this because I used to live above the Baby Doll Lounge, a topless bar that was once frequented by bikers in lower Manhattan.

I'm tempted to use this as my new sig line.

[ParaBellum]

Philipp, with your permission...

[Philippe]

Be my guest.

[throwdjohn]

haha. i believe i read in the BO handbook that motorcycles weren't included because of the potential for abuse of the unit type. somethign about hundreds of cycles chaging positions i beleive.

[Sequoia]

I think it was more about having motorcycles unhistorically scouting out your enemy's position in combination with Borg spotting.

That said if this can be avoided I love to see them in CMXII along with Dandelion's vehicles and ambulances, recovery vehicles, staff cars, etc - hey I can dream can't I!

[Andrew H.]

If motorcycles are in the game, they should have the ability - in appropriate terrain, of course - of "jumping" over other terrain, water obstacles, enemy units, or enemy tanks lined up end to end. I suppose AAMGs could be used against motorcycles while they were in flight. Logic would also suggest that a jumping motorcycle with a sidecar could also "strafe" units on the ground.

This means that a motorcycle could jump a column of trucks, strafe them, and knock them all out! Awesome.

And think of motorcycle borne pioneers on motorcycles *with satchel charges*.

No wonder BFC has been so busy recently.

Edit - motorcycle borne, not motorcycle born...

[Sequoia]

Shouldn't the jumping be available only to the Steve McQueen motorcycle unit?

[MikeyD]

Motorcycles could have some (VERY) limited use, like hit-and run. A mg sidecar motorcycle appears on a hillside, sprays a few trucks 500m away - just outside of rifle range, then disappears before a defense can be made. About the same use as mg-armed jeeps, with about the same life expectancy.

We've all seen the classic Afrika Korps propaganda photo of that mg sidecar motorcycle plowing through desert sand. I'm still not sure how they'd be deployed in other than 'suicide squads'.

[junk2drive]

From a board game point of view, in SPWAW motorcycle troops worked as units with more movement points so to speak.

I CM that could be move orders would be fast move orders compared to other units. Ski troops vs foot troops may be a similar comparison.

Some designers use jeeps and KWs to represent MCs but visually ....