American view of the Eastern Front

[Firefly]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

Face it: we're the elite. CMBB is our IQ test.

Good God, the world's in a worse state than even I thought it was then.

Knowing minute details about WW2 does not make anyone part of an elite, it just means you know minute details about WW2.

[Leit]

Vanir Ausf B

"I don't think one has much to do with the other. In other words, if 100% of Americans could find Iraq on a map, what difference would it make? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if George Bush couldn't find Iraq on a map, but I suspect that somehow everyone who's supposed to get over there will find it sooner or later."

Hm .. my grandfather told that when he show a map of Soviet Union to captured vermaht major at august 1941 he saw how white become that major and wisped somthing like 'hitler caput'....

The point wasn't in educaion at all the point was (as I understand) in extremely low intellect and lack of desire to know somthing more. You hear that your country the best - you like it and accept it to belive, you hear that you have the best policical system and you belive that too only because it's unpleasant to think diferent.

When you have low intellect it became a rule to think that way. This become a key thing to manipulate you. Without intellect you even don't whant to think different, or check it.

So ability to analyse what you hear, even when you like what you hear, gives individual freedom. This is a very weak point of hole american nation.

[ January 18, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Leit ]

[SgtMuhammed]

Leit

This is a weak point of people in general. How else do you explain all those halfbaked crackpots who rise to power. In any culture the vast majority of the people are sheep. The have no drive other than to fill their bellies and their beds and keep themselves out of the rain. Let one man tell them that he can lead them to greener pastures and they will do unspeakable evil for their new savior. Most of the human race doesn't want to decide what to believe they want to be told. This is not an American condition this is a human condition.

[Leit]

Sgtgoody

Sorry, yes ofcourse... But if intellect is low, when you even don't know what was last time enother leader speaks that way you belive him better.

Thats way low education and low intellect at hole is good thing to manipulate people.

[SgtMuhammed]

Agreed, a well informed and well educated people are nearly impossible to enslave. Too bad most people don't want to take the effort to become informed and educated.

[ichadwick]

Originally posted by Firefly:

Knowing minute details about WW2 does not make anyone part of an elite, it just means you know minute details about WW2.

Given that most of the world knows minutiae about pointless and banal things like the Simpsons, Britney Spears' navel size, who wears what jersey in the NHL and the names of all the people in Friends, I'd say we're in the stratosphere of meaningful knowledge here.

Knowing anything about history, science, georgraphy, literature or art puts you a skyscraper above the TV-weaned society we live in. And actually taking an active interest in it - not just playing the game - shows we have some grey matter left that hasn't been turned to pablum by the idiot box.(1)

I got Radzinsky's 1997 bio of Stalin from Amazon this week and I showed it to to my 25-year-old staffer while expressing a sense of excitement at having a new book on the period to read. Her response: "It's too thick." After a few exchanges I realized she had no idea - no idea! who Stalin was: he was just a vague name from her high school history class. (2)

And she had no interest in learning more. Book - and mind - closed. She's not stupid, by the way: very bright in fact. But brought up to watch TV instead of read, to choose entertainment over education, to keep the brain in neutral rather than pry it open.

So, yes, I believe CMBB is an IQ test of sorts (although my comment was more tongue in cheek than serious): it's for the thinking set as opposed to the Playstation set. It's for the geeks who like detail, strategy and depth - for the people that apply brainpower to their entertainment.

Notes:

(1) It has been statistically shown that too much TV leads to people buying SUVs, listening to Britney Spears and saying "dude." It may also lead to smoking, backwards baseball caps, eating in fast food outlets and other unsavoury and unhealthy habits.

(2)Feb. 28 marks the 50th anniversay of Stalin's death. :mad:

[momishuli]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

Agreed, a well informed and well educated people are nearly impossible to enslave. Too bad most people don't want to take the effort to become informed and educated.

Information is not something available to people. Let alone putting the common folk in the real picture, all governments/power groups/elite shape every aspect of human intellectual needs via social control mechanisms, most effecient of which is the "media."

So, I don't think it is simply the people's desire to remain ignorant of the facts; common folks are conditioned to be that way. This is of course in reference to "modern" societies. When you consider that aprx. 3 billion people are carving out a living in poverty, one should not ridicule them for being "sheep." It is no wonder our world is so screwed up the way it is.

I totally agree with you: Informed people can not be enslaved. Thank God we have the internet where one can actualy find out what really is going on. So long as we have the internet, there's a chance that one day people can actually be free.

[ January 18, 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: momishuli ]

[Xipe]

Regarding the US geography skills I think it's this National Geographic study that is quoted.

[Horus]

...on the other hand, it's difficult to be overly critical of the nation that gave us Victoria's Secret catalogues. Where else on earth could you get a book of colour pictures of young women in underwear sent to your home as an normal occurrence - and on a regular basis?

can i order it online ?

plz help

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Ubertracker:

I think our overly-sensitive American friends are missing the point. It's not bashing America to quote from your own test results as published by your own educational institutes and reported in your own press.

It is bashing when the implication is that Americans have some sort of "special ignorance" going on. The fact that 1/3 of Germans couldn't find Holland suggests that geographical ignorance is not limited to the US.

And any time a US study points out things that Americans don't know, people from other countries are *always* gleefully pointing out purported educational shortcomings in the US, assuming that the citizens of their country are much better educated...but without conducting any similar surveys.

Twenty years or so ago, there were a lot of studies in the US about "functional illiteracy," with statistics showing that 10 or 15% of the population couldn't read well enough to do common tasks like filling out job applications. In German, where I happened to be at the time, there were a series of articles that could barely conceal their glee at this evidence of lack of education, even somewhat blurring the line between "illiteracy" and "functional illiteracy."

Of course, there were no similar surveys done in Germany...until about 10 years later, where someone did conduct a survey of functional illiterates in Germany - and came up with about the same percentage of German functional illiterates.

But there's obviously been a breakdown somewhere: you're growing a generation of dunces who can't read maps. Maybe they compensate in their Gameboy manipulation, but it's a weak subject for career development.

Map reading is a skill that involves the use of a map. Filling in the blanks on a map is not map reading.

Don't you think there's someting wrong when you're on the verge of attacking a nation that almost 90% of the people 18-24 - of military and draft age - can't even find on a map? It's about whether the war is right or wrong, but it begs the question: do your soldiers know who, where and why they are fighting? Or are they just taking orders?

I believe the people in military will be able to find Iraq. If the conclusion that you draw in your last paragraph is an example of the logic now taught in the Canadian school system - and it was not when I attended school in Montreal, but things change - then I wouldn't be trying to point out the flaws in the school systems of other countries.

[Xipe]

Most countries in the study scored extremely poor in a couple of the questions - they also acknowledge that "Young people in Canada and Great Britain fared almost as poorly as those in the U.S."; the US respondents only managing to answer 50% of the questions correctly on an average.

"Top scorers were young adults in Sweden, Germany, and Italy. "

An interesting thing to note though was that "Americans who reported that they accessed the Internet within the last 30 days scored 65 percent higher than those who did not."

Americans (and, it seems, canadians and englishmen too) probably should be a little ashamed and try hard to vindicate themselves instead of just turning their backs pretending it doesn't mean anything.

Personally I was impressed that almost one in five americans knew where Sweden was (I'm serious, we're a small country - unfortunatly only known to the rest of the world through blondes and icky socialism).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Ubertracker:

Don't you think there's someting wrong when you're on the verge of attacking a nation that almost 90% of the people 18-24 - of military and draft age - can't even find on a map? It's about whether the war is right or wrong, but it begs the question: do your soldiers know who, where and why they are fighting? Or are they just taking orders?

Oh please. This Canadian has been in the Forces for 15 years, and has to rate Canadian youth as equally ignorant of world events, and that includes the very soldiers I work with on a weekly basis.

And who said the US is going it alone? Britain will likely be alongside, and there is a chance Canada will participate. I'd be surprised if we didn't.

Lucky for you there is no draft in Canada, and you don't have to put your money where your mouth is. Being able to find Iraq on a map and all, I'm sure we could use you.

[Grisha]

What leads me to wonder is if the USA is leading the way in sending the world over the media/marketing edge, mind-swiping the vast majority of humanity and filling it with stimulating visions of youthful sexuality, violence, and really, really neat-looking shoes. Of course, in the fine print is the line, "Cash not included."

I think what I like most about science fiction is that 9 times out of 10, it invariably becomes reality.

[ January 19, 2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Grisha ]

[Firefly]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

Knowing anything about history, science, georgraphy, literature or art puts you a skyscraper above the TV-weaned society we live in.

No it doesn't. It means that you have different interests than them, it doesn't make you a better person. Could Mother Theresa tell the difference between a T-34 and a Panther? How many allied soldiers in 1943 could have found Normandy on a map? In 1938 there were people despairing at the 'uneducated masses' who were only interested in Hollywood movies and jazz bands. There was no mythical time when people were better educated, compare the literacy rate for the US or Britain in 2003 with that of 1903.

[K Jonsson]

Originally posted by Xipe:

Personally I was impressed that almost one in five americans knew where Sweden was (I'm serious, we're a small country - unfortunatly only known to the rest of the world through blondes and icky socialism).

Not so small as most people think. We are actually bigger than Germany. How many swedes do you think are aware that?

Some might argue that Germanys population is bigger, but as everyone knows quality beats quantity evrytime

Regarding WWII history teaching. My teacher in 9th grade, or maybe one or two years earkier, told us of a memory aid to put all the early war on a time line.

Just think of all the major events as occuring in a counter clockwise spiral. Ruhr, Austria, Czechoslovakia(SP?), Poland, Finland, Denmark/Norway, Belgium/Netherlands and France. I've never heard of anyone else being taught that in school, or maybe they just have forgotten it.Not so hard to remember, at least not for those with some interest in WWII.

One other thing he said was that democracy, as we know it, mostly is about how the majority treats the minotity.

/Kristian

[Lumbergh]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

Given that most of the world knows minutiae about pointless and banal things like the Simpsons, I'd say we're in the stratosphere of meaningful knowledge here.

*SNIP*

(1) It has been statistically shown that too much TV leads to people buying SUVs, listening to Britney Spears and saying "dude."

Dude, leave the Simpsons alone, ok man? Pointless??? Banal?????? What do you watch for fun, "Yes Minister"?

I think it can be argued successfully that, for those who reall love it, the Simpsons represents a pastime that is at least as intellectually nuanced as CMBB, let alone has much wider appeal and certainly has more cultural significance.

Perhaps I just belong to a younger generation, but I think that love of witty, cynical television and slightly-strange-definitely-ubernerdy military history can exist together.

Dude.

[Grisha]

Actually, I used to love watching the House of Commons on TV. Now, those guys know how to argue! Talk about art form

[Herr Flick]

Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

And any time a US study points out things that Americans don't know, people from other countries are *always* gleefully pointing out purported educational shortcomings in the US, assuming that the citizens of their country are much better educated...

We ARE much better educated (speaking of Swedes here - top scorers in the survey).

Cheers!

[Guest Sgt. Emren]

Where else on earth could you get a book of colour pictures of young women in underwear sent to your home as an normal occurrence - and on a regular basis?

Oh, I don't know, just about anywhere?

[Gary T]

Completely off on a tangent here...but a survey in the US recently asked them to name the 20 most important Americans in history. The top ones were obvious...Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Martin Luther King etc but straight in at number 13 was...Jesus Christ. I mean, WTF?

*This was printed in most of the British national press...is it true?

[coe]

I'm from Massachusetts, I remember visting some friends in Switzerland and being asked about California's proposition 187. They could not believe I didn't know anything about it. (In the back of my mind, I surmised, that between school and working in the summer, I didn't really have time to follow all the actions in the U.S. I know that is a very American view that Europeans have all the time in the world but hey I had to indulge upon it at that moment).

Americans are very busy and I assume most other people in the world are too. We are sometimes asked, "why do we only know English?" Well given our limited time, which language do we learn since most of the people we run into speak English? Ok arguably things have changed today where one could have a great case for learning Spanish and dropping French from the academic realm of primary education.

The point is, I think you will find Americans (U.S. that is) knowing what they need to know to function in the society we are exposed to. For example, local politics is pretty important, but also the breadth of skills needed for the job market. In the U.S. people totally switch careers tracks at the drop of a dime and are expected to do so too.

Does it matter where Iraq is, well perhaps at this time it does and I think you will be finding that more Americans will know about Iraq soon. At the start of the whole Iraq stuff, why would one need to know where Iraq was.

As for the Eastern front, given today's busy society, why would your everyday American need to know about the Eastern front in detail? I mean no disrespect, but knowing the Eastern front, as applicable to daily lives in the U.S. probably has limited application.

Conan

[Grisha]

Conan,

That may be part of the problem. What does that say about Americans, that they spend so much time working in their attempt to accumulate wealth? I think in the USA, many live to work, whereas in many other countries the general motto is "work to live."

Boy, is this thread spiralling off into the tangential abyss ...

[arkai88]

Most Americans, given the chance, would greatly prefer to stay out of global problems. The world assumes that your common US citizen wants to stick his nose into every other countries' business.

This is far from the truth however, as for the most part, the only US citizens interested in the the rest of the world are the 2% that are part of the 'global economy'.

I would prefer to have a lower tax rate and keep my money going to only internal US problems instead of helping those in other countries, who in most instances will complain about how evil our country is anyway.

Am I bitter about the way the US is looked upon by most of the world? I most certainly am. But it doesn't suprise me as jealosy is an ugly creature.

[Gary T]

Most Americans, given the chance, would greatly prefer to stay out of global problems. The world assumes that your common US citizen wants to stick his nose into every other countries' business.

This is far from the truth however, as for the most part, the only US citizens interested in the the rest of the world are the 2% that are part of the 'global economy'.

I would prefer to have a lower tax rate and keep my money going to only internal US problems instead of helping those in other countries, who in most instances will complain about how evil our country is anyway.

Am I bitter about the way the US is looked upon by most of the world? I most certainly am. But it doesn't suprise me as jealosy is an ugly creature.

The image of the US as a self contained, prosperous economic entity is ridiculous. The US is so prosperous because of it's involvement in other countries, economically and culturally. Those '2%' (which of course in reality is far larger) allow you to sustain your standard of living. For example, where exactly do you think the majority of your oil comes from? Texas?

[Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Gary T:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Most Americans, given the chance, would greatly prefer to stay out of global problems. The world assumes that your common US citizen wants to stick his nose into every other countries' business.

This is far from the truth however, as for the most part, the only US citizens interested in the the rest of the world are the 2% that are part of the 'global economy'.

I would prefer to have a lower tax rate and keep my money going to only internal US problems instead of helping those in other countries, who in most instances will complain about how evil our country is anyway.

Am I bitter about the way the US is looked upon by most of the world? I most certainly am. But it doesn't suprise me as jealosy is an ugly creature.

The image of the US as a self contained, prosperous economic entity is ridiculous. The US is so prosperous because of it's involvement in other countries, economically and culturally. Those '2%' (which of course in reality is far larger) allow you to sustain your standard of living. For example, where exactly do you think the majority of your oil comes from? Texas?</font>