American view of the Eastern Front

[Hans]

American view of the Eastern front

[Quinxi]

Quite an interesting article that many Americans should read.

[ichadwick]

Canadians have known about our big brother's somewhat monocular impression of the world outside their own border for a long time. Doesn't make us love 'em less, but it can be exasperating at times.

When our closest neighbour doesn't even know who our prime minister is, or the name of our nation's capital, it's not surprising that their perspective on an event half a world away and 50 years past is somewhat limited. In fact, in a recent poll in the US media, 87% of American respondents between 18 and 24 could not locate Iraq on a map - the country they're about to invade!

(http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAPPAPPR8D.html)

But then, American's don't remember that we marched to Washington and burned down the White House either....

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

In fact, in a recent poll in the US media, 87% of American respondents between 18 and 24 could not locate Iraq on a map - the country they're about to invade!

Yeah, but the other 13% are Marines

But then, American's don't remember that we marched to Washington and burned down the White House either....

Sure we do, although you didn't march very far (from the ships and back). We also remember burning Toronto...

[ January 15, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Guest Sgt. Emren]

...poll...

Who was it that said: "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ??

[Vanir Ausf B]

It is my understanding that under the Soviet Union, the contributions of the Western Allies were systematically downplayed in history books. I don't know to what extent that is still true, but it is only fair to point out that ignorance of the other guy's history is hardly something unique to Americans.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

Canadians have known about our big brother's somewhat monocular impression of the world outside their own border for a long time. Doesn't make us love 'em less, but it can be exasperating at times.

When our closest neighbour doesn't even know who our prime minister is, or the name of our nation's capital, it's not surprising that their perspective on an event half a world away and 50 years past is somewhat limited. In fact, in a recent poll in the US media, 87% of American respondents between 18 and 24 could not locate Iraq on a map - the country they're about to invade!

(http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAPPAPPR8D.html)

But then, American's don't remember that we marched to Washington and burned down the White House either....

This little item in the new issue of Atlantic Monthly:

...consider some of the stange lacunae in Europeans' knowledge (for instance, despite the 355-mile border between Germany and the Netherlands, nearly a third of Germans couldn't identify the latter—which they seemed to locate just fine in 1940)...

Michael

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

It is my understanding that under the Soviet Union, the contributions of the Western Allies were systematically downplayed in history books. I don't know to what extent that is still true, but it is only fair to point out that ignorance of the other guy's history is hardly something unique to Americans.

One could argue that there is a difference between propaganda and ignorance?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Andreas:

One could argue that there is a difference between propaganda and ignorance?

In a mostly closed society, one tends to lead to the other (even with open societies to some extent). From discussions on this subject a long while back, I recall that there was quite a lot of ignorance.

[ January 15, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Mies]

...consider some of the stange lacunae in Europeans' knowledge (for instance, despite the 355-mile border between Germany and the Netherlands, nearly a third of Germans couldn't identify the latter—which they seemed to locate just fine in 1940)...

That’s probably the %-tage of people from the former East Germany. But to be fair to the Germans, especially the once in the border regions make an effort to speak Dutch, just as a lot of Dutchies speak German. There is only animosity between The Netherlands and Germany when it comes down to Football. Then all of a sudden everyone knows where both countries are located.

Mies

[Lars]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

When our closest neighbour doesn't even know who our prime minister is, or the name of our nation's capital, it's not surprising that their perspective on an event half a world away and 50 years past is somewhat limited.

It's only because you guys never do anything anymore.

Blow something up, get back in the papers.

[CalifVol]

In 1979 I was on the Canadain Armed Forces Base in Petawawa (sp). The good ol' Canadian Militia was on the base at the same time. I got into a discussion with a number of their members. During this discussion they pointed out how Canada had about 50 tanks in Germany in support of NATO, and they (these Canadians) felt rather beleagured with this small force. I pointed out that the base I came from (Ft. Hood, Texas) had 500 tanks alone and that Canada was not the only North American country that was a part of NATO. Their retort? "Why don't you send some of those tanks to Europe. We could use the help!" The sorry part of that discussion was that they weren't joking and thought the US had zero forces deployed to Europe. A myoptic view of the world isn't unique to the US.

I hate it when you can't quote the book. However, I had a Soviet History of World War II, translated into English. Don't recall the name, durn. In that history it barely acknowledges the US was in World War II and doesn't speak at all about the 2nd Front or Lend Lease. It was a general history of the war. Of course the USSR had an agenda, in this case it illustrates that some times a government will encourage a myoptic view. (Let me add that today you can find many Russian websites that talk about Lend-Lease. There is even one with a picture of a soldier that was awarded the "Hero of the Soviet Union" medal and he is standing in front of his M4a2 Sherman Tank, on which he earned the medal.)

Now, as to that silly point about Iraq. Geese, they were merely making a prediction, in a couple of months its going to be blown off the map; nobody will be able to find it. Of course in the case of marines could be they got confused before the question was asked by all the pretty colors on the map. I must go now, it appears some marines have taken umbrage at my last comment (To the marine types that means y'all got pissed off).

[ January 15, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: CalifVol ]

[MikeyD]

Reminds me, recently president Bush was giving a speech about the recent Korean crisis and he had trouble pronouncing the word "peninsula", like he wasn't quite sure what it meant.

In the U.S. you've got to separate the population into three camps:

First, the group that don't know nothin' about nothin. They don't know if we fought with or against the Germans in WWII (back in the 1950s sometime, wasn't it?)

Second, the group that knows the 'party line'. Columbus discovered America, George Washington chopped down a cherry tree, the U.S. won WWII practically single-handedly in a noble selfless effort o protect the world's (unnamed) democracies.

The Third and smallest group are the ones who have a small inkling that there's a bigg world out there with lots of history attached to it. I'd class most CMBB player in that last class.

[ January 15, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[CalifVol]

I have to agree about the three groups of people.

I shall now go on to a hopeless diatribe that might get somewhere. Usually, they don't but there is always hope.

No, seriously, it strikes me odd how WW II is slowly evolving into this saintly self-sacrificing event for the US. I would agree that there are certain absolutes in that war, Nazis and Imperial Japanese are evil. Its astounding how rotten those fellows were! But, because we opposed those that needed opposition there has been some very wild self-serving rationalization taking place in the US for like the last 10 years. Perhaps this is the result of the very ugly fact that our WW II veterans are dying by the bushel (old age) and those in control of the media today are the children of those who are dying. What greater tribute than to acknowldge the supreme sacrifice of one's parents? This is lauditory in my opinion and yet, a classic example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

This may explain what is happening today with such comments as the "Greatest Generation", in several ways tweaking WW II history started even while the history was being written. There is an EXCELLENT film series called "Why We Fight" made by Frank Capra during WW II and shown to US troops prior to deployment and in theaters across the US during the war. These entertaining "documenteries" are available on DVD today. They are also big time propaganda films. They state such nonesense as "our freedom loving allies the USSR and China". Oh, the USSR and Nationalist China were dictatorships? Nope, you got that wrong they were freedom loving democracies "JUST LIKE" the US! Ha, is to laugh. These films are so in favor of the USSR and China that in the 1950's the Defense Department added a note to the films saying they don't represent the opinion of the US government (A funny irony- after that note the emblem of the US Army appears). These films were part of the World War II war effort, they need to be viewed as such, but alas no such effort goes into explaining them today in the video store.

I guess my point is that we should not look to the media for our knowledge of history. They don't get it "right" for any number of reasons. We need to really do some old fashion reading if we want to be rounded in our knowledge of past events.

Ok, I'll bring it all together. This get's to why people's view of WW II is skewed. Its the fact they rely on the media instead of taking personal responsibility and either paying attention in school or doing their own research. That certainly isn't a unique US problem. However, in a democracy, like our's, the penality is an electorate that isn't informed. This means in the US we should demand that our people do know better. When the people at large don't have an accurate view of past events then how can we prevent history from repeating itself or fully understand the base values on which our country is founded?

[PVLLVS MAXIMVS]

Amen to that. Although, on top of the Vets dying out, I think that my generation, and the one after me are being influenced by the fact that schools dont really give a good world-view of the war, for one, and for two : Hollywood. Damn. I actually know people who have argued with me about the historical acuracy of the movie Pearl Harbor. Their reasoning : Pearl harbor really happened, this movie is called pearl harbor, so everything in the movie must be the way it happened.

Bah.

[MikeyD]

Talk about not trusting the media, I recall there was a flap over the Revolutionary war movie "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson. The Brits complained because in order to make Gibson look heroic the studios pretty well turned the British military into family-murdering Nazis! I guess it would've taken some of the 'shine' off the film to portray American rabble publicly torturing British tax officials in the town square.

That's an example of following the 'party line'.

[Horus]

CalifVol you´re a soldier ?

thats absolut great. just had on an german forum a little hot session because right now it seems that germans are imo a little obsessed (sp?) to american bashing (stupid,arrogant blablabla ).

imo so long as men as you in army so long it´s hope that things will not get to bad.

greetings

[Ubertracker]

Another survey:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/11/1120_021120_GeoRoperSurvey.html

About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent; Japan, to 58 percent; France, to 65 percent; and the United Kingdom, to 69 percent.

From http://www.edexcellence.net/library/epci.html:

According to the 1994 assessment of history by the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), our only reliable national gauge of student achievement, six out of seven eighth graders are not proficient in their understanding of American history, and 39 percent are not aware of even the most basic facts of our nation's history. Their performance alone warrants a failing grade. Even more alarming, however, is that 57 percent of high-school seniors register "below basic" in their knowledge of American history. These uninformed young people are now voters. We cannot give a passing mark to this dismal performance.

And from http://edreform.com/pubs/history.htm:

Since 1994, three percent more fourth-graders performed at the basic level and one percent more scored at the proficient level. In fact, with only 18 percent of fourth-graders at proficiency or above, the nation is 82 percentage points short of full fourth-grade proficiency.

From http://www.sunspot.net/news/readingby9/bal-md.edbeat12may12,0,4466924.column?coll=bal-rb9:

In no other subject assessed by NAEP, including math and reading, do more than half of high school seniors register below basic, an achievement level that denotes only partial mastery of significant historical knowledge. Even in science, in which American 12th-graders are far from Einsteins, 47 percent scored below basic in the latest NAEP tests. In history, 57 percent fell below basic.

Sad. Truly sad. How can we have a new generation of wargamers if the coming generations "don't know much 'bout history"?

[demoss]

About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent

"DUUUUUUUDE! It's right OVER THERE!" <points out the window>

That probably accounts for a good chunk of those able to locate the Pacific.

[MikeyD]

Kind'a explains our choice of presidents, doesn't it! ...oh yeh, I forgot. He lost the election, didn't he!

[CalifVol]

Horus:

Yes, I am and thank you for your very kind words.

Imagine, there are Germans doing American bashing in an open forum? If it was 60 years ago there wouldn't be an open form in Germany.

My concern about American bashing in Germany is summed up by; in the days after 9/11 NATO sent AWAC's to help patrol the eastern seaboard of the US, there were German Airmen among those crews. When I was stationed in Bosnia in 2000 there were German Soldiers working civil affairs down the road from me. Today, when peacekeeping in Afghanistan is discussed Germany and its support is mentioned as well. I am not concerned about a few Germans bashing the US, Germany's a free country, they got a right to do so. Rather I am grateful for all the support that Germany has given to the US and the manner in which it has stood by us in our time of need.

[JasonC]

"87% of American respondents between 18 and 24 could not locate Iraq on a map"

Wait two months, and Saddam won't be able to find it either.

[MikeyD]

Poor Saddam. He never did anything to us!

[MickeeMao]

Originally posted by demoss:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent

"DUUUUUUUDE! It's right OVER THERE!" <points out the window>

That probably accounts for a good chunk of those able to locate the Pacific.

</font>

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

It is my understanding that under the Soviet Union, the contributions of the Western Allies were systematically downplayed in history books. I don't know to what extent that is still true, but it is only fair to point out that ignorance of the other guy's history is hardly something unique to Americans.

Yea... have you ever heard about what they print in Japanese school books on history, WW2 in particular?