A note on partisans....

[P z B]

I think the partisans are far to mobile!

They shouldn't have more than 1 in movement rating.

In my last game I had more troops killing of partisans than conquering Moscow

When partisans arrive they sweep towards the nearest unoccupied city or mine and occupies them. Once they captured Kiev, the garrison was out hunting...partisans <G>. Had to divert an HQ, army and 2 corps to kill the bugger.

Another time the partisans raced into Belgrade and 'liberated'!!! Yugoslavia'. Again I had to use huge forces to get rid of the bug.

Prague got occupied TWICE....

I really enjoy the game, but I'll consider turning off the partisan option if it isn't improved. They were a nuisance on both manpower and supply, but with the exception of maybe Warzaw, they didn't perform anything like this.

What do the rest of you think?

[J Wagner]

I think the partisan only objective should be to retake Belgrade. If they succeed, the Germans would lose the mmps. So as the German player, you need to keep a unit in the capital and suffer costly attrition loses, unless you send in more corps to wipe the partisans out.

[ August 03, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: J Wagner ]

[Sol Invictus]

If you are talking both Yugo and Russian partisans then you are talking about very large forces that were needed to defend against them. Sure, in a game of this scale, it is hard to model them perfectly but just take them into consideration and have forces guarding the rear areas, like the Germans had to do. The Axis minors just love fighting partisans.

[Massattack]

I would rather have them than not, as it forces you to garrison your rear areas, which is realistic, but DO wish they would not shoot off on European City tours at a moments whim.

Regards

[Sol Invictus]

I would agree that they should remain in their own country. I guess the threat of them going anywhere is an attempt to make the German utilize a somewhat larger force to combat them. I think if they were restricted to their country, they would indeed be a very minor irritant.

[P z B]

If 2 new army corpse would be sufficient to neutralize a partisan unit, then fine...

But how many armies do you think were used in the real world to suppress a single partisan unit.

I spent 2-3 months reducing a single partisan unit, and couldn't finish it of with my corpses. Had to bring in half the army.

So I suggest that partisan groups should be less of a match for army units, a movement value of one and that it shouldn't be possible for them to reinforce themselves with more than +1 strength each turn.

The threat of partisans itself would be enough to garrison all occupied cities in Yugo and Russia. If you do so, the menace should be contained.

Maybe it should be possible to purchase cheaper second rate garrison troops as well? Security and police divisions...

[Straha]

I think it would probably be difficult to program them so to respect the borders of their country. So other measures might be better:

1) Making them weaker.

2) Making them slower.

3) Make less of them.

1) and 3) is to not have to devote ridiculous amounts of troops to them, and 2) is to prevent them crossing Europe with lightning speed before one can react.

In principle, partisan units are a great addition to the game - they just should stay partisans and not become elite corps.

Straha

[Hubert Cater]

For a designer note here, the idea with the partisans was to create the need to spend and tie up some of your forces in rear guard action. Leaving these areas all empty can cause some headaches as I've seen posted in this thread, but a quick hint... think about where most of the partisan activity took place and keep an eye as to where they are formed. Rear guard these specific areas and you may see all your partisan problems go away!

Hubert

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Dont forget our other active partisan thread.

Partisans

[Andrew H.]

I think that Partisans are more right than not, given the mechanics of the game. I agree in principle that partisans shouldn't leave their country - but I think that if this were the case, players would just garrison supply points and let the partisans *have* the rest of the country. This isn't realistic, either; it's less realistic than having them roam about the way that they do.

On balance, the game feels more real with partisans in than without them...and if you garrison properly, they aren't a problem.

I think that the Warsaw ghetto is a good example of how tenacious partisans can be; the fact that Warsaw was the only place where the partisans fought units to a standstill doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened in other places.

Especially if the Germans forgot to garrison a major city.

[P z B]

After placing 2 corps in Yugo, 1 on the capital and another one in the mountains in the NW, I havn't experienced any more partisans in the area. Not sure it's going to hold but at least it got Yugo bottled up.

I guess we have to use the same receipt for mother Russia..) 2 corps in the vicinity of known partisan attacks.

..but I still think that their speed should be reduced!)

[Rediroc]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

but a quick hint... think about where most of the partisan activity took place and keep an eye as to where they are formed. Rear guard these specific areas and you may see all your partisan problems go away!

Hubert

I agree and was considering that, but I find it a bit "gamey" myself. Mine as well turn them off totally. Axis should have trouble with partisans, but they should not be able to leave the homeland.

They "liberated" Prague in what would have been my best game to date. I can just see a few hundred yugoslavian farmers brandishing old rifles and pitchforks taking it.

[ August 04, 2002, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: Rediroc ]

[Willard]

Yes, exactly right.

I had problems with partisans in Yugo with the demo. Once I stationed a corps in Belgrade and one in the mountains where the partisans spring up, the problem went away. I would assumee (???) that the same concept would work in full length version.

[Rediroc]

Bump, and also Russian partisans should not be able to rejoin russian lines and then be reinforced to a normal fighting unit.

[gorski]

Soooo, whenever I want to train my jet pilots, I just need to let a partisan spawn?

Gorski

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

theres an idea, but not only your fighters, you should let ALL army units resting in Yugo gain some easy experience points.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Rediroc:

Bump, and also Russian partisans should not be able to rejoin russian lines and then be reinforced to a normal fighting unit.

Actually there's nothing particularly wrong with this IMO.

"Partisan" units were often regular troops cut off and surrounded or sent through gaps in the wide open spaces of the Russian front, or paradropped behind the lines.

Given the basic level of training of Russian infantry experienced partisans weer probably excellent recruits for the Reguar army!!

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

agreed, however it is an annoying tactic that must be included in the game.

[P z B]

Been experimenting more with the partisans.

Placing 2 corps in Yugo helped for a while, but suddenly more appeared down south. Looks like 3 corps are needed..?

Riga wasn't a troublesome area in WWII as most of the inhabitants were pro German but they certainly are active in SC! Transfered the corps on Riga to fill a hole in the line and voila, a partisan unit started IN the city!?

(It's really difficult to get a 8 str partisan unit out of cities...)

I keep on coming to the same conclusion, partisans are good for the game but their movement should be reduced to 1.

[Straha]

There should be no partisans in the baltic states.

Straha

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

just like there should be no partisans in germany, the just cross the border into it, defend your cities, and u wont have this problem.

[Straha]

Originally posted by Carl Von Mannerheim:

just like there should be no partisans in germany, the just cross the border into it, defend your cities, and u wont have this problem.

No, I meant there should be no pop-up point for partisans in Riga. That's different from the crossing borders issue.

Straha

[Camicie Nere]

I touched on this in the other partisan thread but maybe it will help to restate it.

They will NOT - repeat, will NOT appear within one hex of one of your units. Hubert hinted at this and it is true. In Yugo, just put three corps total spaced out properly and there will be no further problems. Some would call that "gamey," but the experience of history will tell us that a serious military presence severely limits partisan activities on a large scale.

So buy a couple corps or better yet use the Axis minors and Yugo is fine.

With Russia, you want to garrison the cities anyway and will most likely have enough assets running around to deal with the irregulars that appear.

Do not be lazy with garrisoning those Russian cities. A corps is fairly cheap and if you lose a city the damn Russkies or partisans will destroy it when you take it back. Then you have another 5 turn wait to get the city back to where you can produce in it.

[Camicie Nere]

Oh, also, the Yugo partisans were pretty tough in real life. Especially late in the war, when they actually fielded armored units. I'm even thinking there were some of brigade strength, but I am sure our resident Slovenes and the like could shed some light on the topic. Anyway, I do not think the game overmodels them, other than their propensity to try to toast the end of the Axis war effort from the Buergerbraukeller in Munich. (Their invasions of Italy are perhaps more accurate - Tito seriously coveted the Trieste region as a potential addition to postwar Yugoslavia.)

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

For a designer note here, the idea with the partisans was to create the need to spend and tie up some of your forces in rear guard action. Leaving these areas all empty can cause some headaches as I've seen posted in this thread, but a quick hint... think about where most of the partisan activity took place and keep an eye as to where they are formed. Rear guard these specific areas and you may see all your partisan problems go away!

Lessee heah. After playing through the game (Intermediate / +1), the partisans seem to favor these areas:

Yugoslavia: The 2nd mountain hex just SE of the Italian border --- though I did have one pop up in the mountain hex right on the Greek border (only once).

Russia: The Pripet Marshes (75% of the time), the Baltic coast just E of Riga and NW of the forest (near the marsh), the marshy area just NE of Odessa and W of the Dnieper River. So, I'd say yr best bet is to keep an eye on the swamps, as they seem to be full of web-footed Bolshiviks.