Willard

For what it is worth... http://www.wargamer.com/articles/readerschoice_awards_2006/ *Of course I it won't be difficult to guess who will say that the above is worth nothing.

Peterk - Understand your concerns. Admittedly games like HTTR or COTA / Take Command take some getting used to. There is an element of distance in the process/decision making cycle as you are not moving every single counter involved in the assault. To me that is refreshing...by my nature I don't like to micromanage things ala Paradox's latest incarnation of Hearts of Iron, etc. I own and play both CMBB and HTTR/COTA. As I indicated earlier, I believe CMBB is an evolutionary half-step before HTTR/COTA. That being said, it still is an improvement, IMO, over the hex/counter/turn games. However saying that "game play was and is poor" is quite different than what you were saying that you didn't enjoy it. I would strongly urge you try out HTTR...the RDOA demo isn't the refined system you see now with HTTR and COTA. In final analysis, all this really does become moot if you don't have fun with what you play. When I see COTA/HTTR as exciting, innovative and refreshing, another will see it as just another detached RTS clickfest. My hope is that others will take the plunge away from the old stand-by and try something new...I think they may be suprised by the results if they give it a fair shot.

Jason - You basically have proven my point - that those gamers that fancy themselves as traditionalists dismiss these type of "real time tactical" or "pausible continuous time" games completely out of hand. On what basis do you claim the "game play was and is poor"??? You provide absolutely no analysis or commentary to support this claim whatsoever and miss my point completely. I am not disparaging turn/hex/counter games at all. There are plenty to like and enjoy. But it is a stretch to think that any innovative game play has come from that system. By your own admission, the system has been around for 3 decades with basically no change or innovation. Introducing the PC to the mix has done nothing except speeding up calculations and making the game easier to play over long distances. As for your comments about "rule lawyering," you mis-represented my initial point. To say that a comprehensive understanding of a game system doesn't provide an advantage is illogical. How can it not over a less experienced opponent? I never mentioned anyone trying to game another opponent by "interpreting" rules one way or another. To use your example, Chess - Go and Bridge have pretty well understood rules for those that play and for those that don't, there are ample resources to verify. Consequently I would agree that there is no place for "rule lawyering." Contrast that with whatever version of AH rules for Advanced 3rd Reich to discuss arcane paradrop rules or war entry ratings you are using and that is "rule lawyering." As for PC & graphics power, if your thought is that they have replaced the role of the player, you once again missed the point. If your idea of fun is spending hours calculating odds and die rolls, great - have at it. If your idea of fun is micromanaging units of the Normandy invasion down to the squad level, great - have at it. Just cause a game has a thousand counters that you move on a thousand hexes doesn't give it "game play depth" anymore than than provides "immersion fun factors." Seriously, last time I read a history of D-Day, I must have forgot the part about Ike moving every squad on the invasion beaches. That being said, I don't dismiss the contributions of hex/turn/counter games like you of these RTT or PCT games. Whereas you seem to believe that they are the "final stage" of wargaming, I view them as just the previous step in the wargaming evolutionary scale. Combat Mission moved the bar a little bit, but RTT/PCT is the next big innovative step forward.

Some random musings on various battle engines: IMO, the AA (airborne assault) engine and MMG's Take Command are the way of the future. They really are an evolution of the Close Combat series and SMG's Gettysburg (and add-ons Antietam, WNLB, ANGV) and are the sweet spot between turn based/hex/counters and RTS (like Sudden Strike). Games such as Combat Mission series are really just a turn based/hex/counter game in 3D...with the added improvement of simultaneous WEGO turn resolution that isn't really possible in table top games. That being said, I do enjoy what the Combat Mission series offers, but absent the 3D graphics, it really is just a "half-step" in the evolution of wargames. Given that wargaming is steeped in a lot of tradition (i.e. all those hex and turn guys), I view CM as a necessary stepping stone to the innovative future of wargaming in games like COTA or Take Command. RTS clickfests certainly have some semblance of strategy (none to my liking, but that is a matter of taste) and with their major contribution to the genre being the incorporation of eye-popping graphics. This is an important feature in that it demonstrates that games can be both well balanced, strategically challenging and still look-good (think the hot chick who has a brain!!!). I think it is simply a matter of time before graphics and pc power approach a position where the AA engine can be used to plan a battle and the player can zoom in to see things played out in a 3D environment. This is what MMG is doing right now, albeit on a smaller battle scale, and what AA COULD do (graphics and size/scope being the limiting factor now) in the future. That is why both of these game series are INNOVATIVE giant steps for the wargaming genre. The fact that they may not be recognized as such now isn't as important (unless you are the developers and need $$$ from sales ) as the fact that 10 years down the road, game designers will be pointing to those 2 games much the way we look at Close Combat or SMG's Gettysburg today. The basic fact of the matter is that a lot of these hex/counter/turn games have simply been ported to PC to allow for solitaire or PBEM play. That isn't really innovative as much as it allows the gaming community to expand beyond the traditional boundaries of the table top in the basement. Now that the "basement' is bigger and the PC calculates the odds/die roles, nothing has fundamentally changed in the way the game is played except that you don't have to worry about the dog knocking over the table! Unfortunately that is what the majority of the wargaming world has failed to perceive in their hesitance to embrace games such as COTA/HTTR/TC2M. Sure Close Combat and SMG were big commercial hits, but has really anyone come out with anything comparable in the past decade? The strange part about all this is NO ONE has capitalized on that "pausible continuous time" strategy movement despite the commerical success of those 2 series. If I had to go out on a limb and commit wargaming heresy, I would bet that this is because the great majority purchasers of the CC and SMG phenomona WEREN'T your traditional hex/counter/turn wargamer. Those games appealed to Joe Q. Public and as much as the traditional wargamers lament the apparant demise of their chosen hobby every year, deep down inside the last thing they want to see is the common man encroach upon the boundaries of their sacred "elitist" hobby. Why??? The answer is really simple. IMO, for years the hardcore wargamer had a simple advantage over his many opponents in that they "knew" the odds or all the quirks of the hex/counter/turn games. This knowledge of statistics, arcane rules, etc were the difference between the great wargamer and your journeyman wargamer. Heck, how can a guy be expected to just pick up a copy of Advanced 3rd Reich and sit down and play in one night? Just trying to set up for the first time is enough to bump off all but the most committed player. But sit down and load up Sid Meier's Gettysburg and the tables have turned. Knowledge of "soak off odds" or "river movement rules" are meaningless. Now strategy, intuition, audacity and cunning...the qualities that seperate the real battlefield commander from the boys are paramount. And those "pausible real time" games reward those commanders that understand this. Sure there is still the element of "counter strength" in understanding the relative strengths of your combat units etc, but the difference between victory and defeat is no longer based upon who can add up the damn counter odds fastest. Now victory or defeat is the result of the commander best being able to "visualize" the battle and make the right decisions, committing the right level of forces at the decisive time & location on the battlefield...and all this in REAL TIME!!! That is why AA or TC is superior to hex/counter/turn. Making decisions when you have hours to review each and every variation and permutation of counters is fine and dandy. With enough time, 1 out of a 1000 chimps will type out Dicken's "Great Expectations" also. But put a time limit on that decision making process...where decisions are made with imperfect information...and you get quite a different result. I kind have the view that hex/counter/turn games are something were everything goes clockwork like the German train and mobilization schedule in WWI. There are really no suprises and everything is mechanical. Of course the reality is quite different - as the saying goes, no plan survives first enemy contact. Unfortunately hex/counter/turn can't recreate that most important aspect of warfare, which is why AA or TC are IMO the gold standard in wargaming today.

Just purchased CM3-AK Special Edition... My question is, do I need to patch this edition in anyway or is this the most "recent" version??? Thanks for the help!

Wartime Command Saw this screenshot preview in the Wargamer. Looks like CM to me. Anyone else hear about this?

the music used in Strategic Command has been used for AFN (Armed Forces Network) tv commercials. my wife and i heard it on tv once and she asked me why the tv was playing music from one of my games!!!!

95.2 mb dl in 5 min and 58 secs!!!!

Hans- Would you be kind enough to send me the complete set of Small Battles? I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Will

Thanks for the info Mike!

Matt- I downloaded the rules sets for CMBO from the CMHQ. However when I double click on the exe file, the rules sets don't load up. Any suggestions? [ October 18, 2003, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Willard ]

Moon/Madmatt-- Thanks for the info. I appreciate you both taking the time to respond. I visit the SC forums alot--I purchased SC when it first came out, but don't post alot. However, I want to thank you both for you quick response and also for you work here on the forums. You guys are probably the best Admins I have ever seen on a site...keep up the good work! Its forums like here and and people like you that bring Battlefront new customers or repeat customers (like myself). Thanks!

Hi all--- Need some help from the resident experts. Posted in the CM-BB forum also, but it appears that thread was hijacked. Hope you guys can help. Just played demo for CM-BO and CM-BB and WOW!!! Totally awesome!!! I can't believe I missed out on these games. Anyway, I am looking to purchase the games, but need advice on what to get. It appears that there are several versions out--- CM-BO CM-BO Special Edition (Does this come with extra special effects when the Death Star explodes? ) CM-BB CM-BB Special Edition and finally the CM-BO/CM-BB Bundle. Anyway, I was hoping you guys could give me advice on what to get and what the major differences, if any between the different versions. Thanks!!!

Hi all... I just played the CMBB demo (dl from this site). I have to say it is fantastic... I can't believe that I have missed this. Anyway, I was hoping old timers could help me out with some purchasing decisions. I understand that there are two versions of CMBB and CMBO (regular and special edition). Which version should I get? Also, is it worth it to get CMBO or is that included in CMBB? Thanks in advance for the advice.

Go to download page, the 1.07 patch has been officially released.

I'd like to sign up for the ladder also. However it is difficult for me to IP games due to work and time difference (I am in Greece so it is +2GMT and +7EST). Are there any specific rules regarding ladder games being IP or PBEM? If not I would like to join. Please let me know and thanks!

Ok, I have read some of the last posts, but I need time to digest them and it is too late for me to do that tonight. Emil- please continue with your posts and I understand that we will need to wait for your responses. Also please understand that on certain things we are going to have to "agree to disagree." Jersey- I think this thread should remain open for now. However there needs to be some strict monitoring. I am not an illiterate oaf like some might think and there is some value in presently continuing this thread. If we can keep it here for all to see, great, I just dont want it lost in the general forum. If there are any mods out there, your input would be appreciated. BTW, a bit off topic, some info on Emil's namesake... Seibold

Jersey and Emil- I must have "cross" posted, because I did not see your subsequent additions until I finished my last post. My last post was written in response to Jersey's post of December 17, 2002 02:16 PM. I have just finished reading your posts but dont have time to respond now. I will either later tonight or tommorow.

Sorry Jersey John, but that is not what you wrote the first time. This is what your wrote, minus some historical analysis... Had you written the following: which was from your last post, in the original post, I may have a different viewpoint. I believe, based upon your response, that you recognize that your previous posts were not appropriate and your are trying to now back off from them and their tone by spinning them in a different light. I mean honestly, I did not say any names, yet you immediately ask me if I referred to you and CVM. Only the guilty act that way. And to answer your question, yes I am referring to you two. Especially when I read stuff like this from CVM: Sorry, but if you dont see something wrong with this there is a problem. Why shouldnt Emil worry? How about a little guilt here?? I am confused about how the Germans were defending their homeland in the sewers of Stalingrad. This patronizing tone is uncalled for. Oh and the boys??? Most of your moral value structure is inplace by the mid-teens. SO PLEASE, enough with the "brainwashing" excuses. People know what is right and wrong. So tell me, how should I have "read" that post??? SO, in order to protect you and CVM, and not take responsibilty for WHAT YOU WROTE, you are trying to discredit my post and others by categorizng them as jingoistic rants...by saying we are the lynchmob...which is ironic given that you are defending a man and his beliefs that never gave quarter to anyone!!!! IMO, my posts and others were certainly justified especially after the lovefest that was going on earlier in the thread. Had you expressed the sentiments in your response earlier, I probably would have reacted differently. However you did not and the proof is in the post, so-to-speak. Only you know what your initial intent was. I only know what I read. Had I been the only one who "read" your posts that way, you may have a leg to stand on. However, myself and others saw similar things in your posts that we felt were inappropriate. Please dont attempt discredit us with a "it is them, not me" argument. We only know what you write, so be more careful. And for the record...had you expressed yourself more clearly in the intitial post, I would applaud the effort...so long as the thread was carefully monitored and it was clear to all that any excesses would be curbed. Additionally since it was Emil who started this thread, it appears that he is the one with the agenda. He certainly doesnt need Carl or you to defend him...yet he is mysteriously absent from any of these subsequent posts. Oh, I know, it must have been me who scared off the WW2 vet. Trust me, if he is legit, he will return to defend himself. He certainly should not be afraid of me given the horrors he claims to have faced.

BTW, I would like to add a few more comments... First off, it disgusts me to see members of the board pandering to this Emil Siebold. Especially in light of his blatantly Nazi sympathizing comments. Your fawning over him like he was the only girl at the prom!!! I am sure some of you will denounce me for making judgements with out exeperiencing "the times" and various other naive attempts to discredit my posts. However, I dont need to "live in the times" to know right from wrong. And I can also read what this person wrote.\ I SUGGEST YOU DO THE SAME. It is one thing if this person had written that he had fought in the war and was going to speak frankly about what had happened. However, his post reeks of re-hashed Nuremburg defenses utilized by the guilty Nazis. Always blaming others, always crying "encirclement" (ala the Kaiser) and always crying they were forced to defend the Fatherland. RUBBISH!!!! And btw, I dont buy that crap for a single minute that the Germans didnt know what was going on. That is total BULL****. They knew exactly what was going on. Where do you think the German childhood scolding expression "You'll go up the chimney" came from??? You mean to tell me those villages next to the camps didnt know what was going on? You mean to tell me that the German armament industries using hundreds of thousands of slave labor didnt know what was going on? You mean to tell me that the Germans settlers in formerly Polish territory never wondered where all the Poles went??? Please just tell me you were just following orders. Please just tell me you were doing your duty for the Fatherland. It makes it easy for you then if we give you that out. You can wipe your conscience clean if that is done. But I wont do it. I wont give you that. The Allies may have absolved Germany's sins by hanging 20 at Nuremburg, but it took more than 20 to accomplish what was done. It took more than a 1000 or a 100,000 or even a 1,000,000. Think long and hard about it. Some of you may claim that I unfairly blame this poor old man for wrongs he possibly could not have committed. Please read again. I am not blaming him for anything. I am simply calling him to the floor to defend his revisionist history driven statements. My suggestion for any moderator who reads this is to close/delete this thread and have Emil Siebold banned from posting. There is no need for his nonsense in a respectable gaming forum.

Sorry Emil--- If you are legit and since you havent posted a response, I doubt that you are, you will not win any sympathy from me... We should have sent every German to hell. I dont care what your revisionist views of history are. I dont care how you justify your actions during the war so you can get a good nights rest from your well deserved nightmares. It is obvious from your post (if you are not trolling) that you still believe the Nazi crap you used to eat when you were younger... Wow, I guess all those Germans "Sieg Heiling" in the propaganda films were extras right??? Ummm, the use of "German" and "race" should not be included in the same sentance or paragraph or book. The Germans are a nation or a people or a culture. Your use of the term "race" to describe Germans, stinks of Nazi racial beliefs. You should be ashamed. The Kaiser started the war simply because of some bull**** petty family squabble and a German inferiority complex (which is still evident in your post). As for the military aspects of WW2, German troops led to the destruction and death of millions, if not by direct action, then by their military conquest which enabled later atrocities. And please dont degrade yourself like a dog by claiming you were "defending Germany." Total Bull****!!! The only way you could get your blessed "lebensraum" was by wiping out other peoples. Did you think that the Poles and Russians were simply going to let the Fraus move in? And what did you need your "lebensraum" for??? German population is greater today than it was pre-war. I certainly dont hear any clamoring for more room now! And for the record please note the use of the phrase "race of peoples" once again. The Nazi stink still pervades your writing. The Versailles Treaty, although harsh, was much more lenient than the one imposed by the Germans on the French after 1870 or the Austrians in 1866 or even the Belgians in 1914...I guess you forgot about the war penalty imposed on Brussels in August of 1914? As for the great depression, it effected and crippled countries world-wide. Yes Germany suffered, yes it may have suffered more than others, but certainly not enough to justify war or Nazism---which is what you are trying to do. LOL, if anyone cant read this and not laugh, you are a fool. "Former glory," WTF does that mean?? You were entitled to take back nothing!!! And the use of the phrases "take back our former glory" and "take what was ours for the taking" are certainly feable attempts to cowardly justify war. The "Sieg Heil" comment is disgraceful. No further comment needed on that point. LMAO off!!! It wasnt the British and French's fault moron. I love the use of the technicality of France and Britain, "they declared war on us" comment. I guess you forgot about the whole illegal invasion of Poland and Brit/France's treaty obligation??? It was German troops invading Poland, unprovoked naked aggression, that started WW2, nothing else. The blame is squarely on your shoulders. As for the "**** Hitler, Deutschland Uber Alles" comment, it is obvious you havent learned much over the past 50 years. Saying "**** Hitler" doesnt make you any less of a Nazi now. It is obvious from your comments that you are still a true believer. Perhaps if you were man enough you could admit your sins and have some chance at redemption. Well there is really nothing more to add. Perhaps you will find peace and penance in your final days. If not, please say hello to Adolf and the crew in hell.

Is there any war in history in which one side or both, were justified?

Anyone know if Holze is going to update his outstanding "Elite Edition" Graphics for version 1.05? Thanks for any info!!

Hubert- Ok, I reinstalled, repatched and rebooted and things are much better. For everyone's info, it appears the PBEM file I recieved was corrupted by the ISP (aol) of my opponent. When I loaded that in my PBEM folder and started up SC, things went bonkers. Anyone have any problems with others?? Thanks for the help Hubert. Will

No luck Hubert. I am in the bunker going insane... How can I direct a war effort like this? How??? LOL Any suggestions would be much appreciated. The panzers are closing in on my positions...