The Polish Campaign...A Strategic Command AAR (Pics Included)

[Epée]

Superted, thanks for the AAR.

Have you already played out the next months? Or are you willing to discuss plans?

Are you going for Sealion? Gibraltar? Preemptive attack on Russia and leaving France alone?

Christian

[BloodyBucket]

Here are the highly secret war plans of SuperTed. I wager, however, that he will become ambitious as Brutus and attempt to have it all at once.

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Epée:

Superted, thanks for the AAR.

Have you already played out the next months? Or are you willing to discuss plans?

Are you going for Sealion? Gibraltar? Preemptive attack on Russia and leaving France alone?

Christian

Christian,

I am not playing ahead. I have been playing a turn, taking screenshots along the way. Then, I edit the screenshots and write the AARs. It's a slow process, but I hope to give everybody a good idea of what I'm doing (then, somebody can tell me so I know :eek: ).

If you go to the top of the first page of this thread, you'll see the link to "War Is Declared!" I outline my general plan in there.

Hint: I hope to be facing only the US and USSR at some point.

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by BloodyBucket:

Here are the highly secret war plans of SuperTed. I wager, however, that he will become ambitious as Brutus and attempt to have it all at once.

BB,

The link is also at the top of this thread. I'll be adding links to previous installments in all the AARs.

Brutus, eh? We shall see...

[Desert Dave]

Super Ted -- your final AAR map shows where you have strengthened the Scharnhorst -- does this mean that the research advance, gun-laying radar, was ALREADY available to the Germans (... this allows an increase over & above size 10)?

If so, that means other countries might have certain research advances before the War even begins?

Also, Kiel does not appear to be a two-front port. Does this mean that Germany cannot exit directly into the Atlantic -- only into the Baltic?

[SuperTed]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

Super Ted -- your final AAR map shows where you have strengthened the Scharnhorst -- does this mean that the research advance, gun-laying radar, was ALREADY available to the Germans (... this allows an increase over & above size 10)?

If so, that means other countries might have certain research advances before the War even begins?

Also, Kiel does not appear to be a two-front port. Does this mean that Germany cannot exit directly into the Atlantic -- only into the Baltic?

IE,

The Germans start with one point in each of three categories (Advanced Subs, Gun Laying Radar, and Rockets). To be honest, I don't know if this affects the maximum strength for units. Hubert would be able to answer that.

Other countries could well have research advances in place, but I have only played from the Axis side. So, I don't know for sure, but I would assume there would be some for the Allies too.

Kiel is on the Baltic only. The canal is not modeled. Considering the strength of the British fleet, I like it this way.

[Straha]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

Also, Kiel does not appear to be a two-front port. Does this mean that Germany cannot exit directly into the Atlantic -- only into the Baltic?

IE ... you´re slowly becoming like me ...

Anyway, I thought about this issue, too, and came to the following (non-conclusive)conclusions: Kiel can´t be really two-front, and in games where the scale is such that cities like Bremerhaven, Wilhelmshaven, Cuxhaven etc. are not depicted, usually Hamburg takes that role because the Elbe at Hamburg is so broad that ships easily can enter the North Sea. The only way to do this would be to "chip" Hamburg a little bit to the West or North-West, though, but this would look wrong and ugly (as would making the hex West of Hamburg a sea hex).

Still another idea would be to move the city in the North-West corner (Muenster) one hex up North, where it could portray any one of the port cities at the Friesian coast. But then that Northern area would be clogged with cities somehow.

So probably we have to live with the fact that the invasion of Norway has to start from the Baltic ...

Btw. I´m still campaigning for the deletion of Muenster (why is this city deemed to be so important?) in favor of Vienna or Hanover, and also for the relocation of the resource icon to where it belongs to properly signify the Ruhr area.

Straha

[Straha]

JUST A MOMENT! I see that ports do not necessarily belong to "real" cities ... so we could simply add Bremerhaven ... this should be considered, for it IS strange that the Germans have no way of accessing the North Sea.

Straha

[Desert Dave]

As originally posted by Straha:

JUST A MOMENT! I see that ports do not necessarily belong to "real" cities ... so we could simply add Bremerhaven ... this should be considered, for it IS strange that the Germans have no way of accessing the North Sea.

Well, Ted seems to believe that the German navy needs protection from HMS Hood and the like... when actually, my pal Karl Doenitz and I suspect it is the other way around. We'll see how he does in the poppy fields of Flanders before we accept his judgement at face value, eh?

I can't remember now if you can change physical aspects of the map (... ports and factories and the like) -- I don't think so, but it would sure be nice, sort of like one of those Sim City versions.

[Hubert Cater]

Btw. I´m still campaigning for the deletion of Muenster (why is this city deemed to be so important?) in favor of Vienna or Hanover, and also for the relocation of the resource icon to where it belongs to properly signify the Ruhr area.

Straha[/QB]

The resource icon has been moved, and the three German cities in the west are Hamburg, Essen and Frankfurt. The city in the Low Countries is Brussles and that port is Antwerp.

The layout has been done to the best effect considering the hex system and not every port/resource/city has been included for a variety of reasons, balancing total MPP, game play, supply rules etc.

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Straha]

Hubert, many thanks for relocating the Ruhr. I'm fine with the lacking of a port on the North Sea.

But if two of the cities are supposed to be Essen and Frankfurt, then the following little changes are in order and would make things perfect:

- Essen one hex South (this ensures the correct location with respect to the bending of the Rhine into the Benelux. As Essen is itself the biggest city of the Ruhr area, the resource icon should be located either to the immediate South or West from Essen (West being better IMO).

- Frankfurt one hex South-East (the city is located on the Main, and not on the Rhine). Frankfurt is approximately on the same heigth as Prague.

One could even easily simulate the Main River by making two or three hexes South of Frankfurt (when it is in its new location) river hexes, beginning from the Rhine. A more abstracted, and maybe even better way would be to just make the one hex West of Frankfurt (when in the new location) a river hex.

You can see what I mean here:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~deubadnw/history/maps/d1914.jpg

Please don't get angry with me because of all these suggestions - maps always were my obsession (surprise, surprise!).

Straha

[ May 03, 2002, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Straha ]

[Desert Dave]

Not to worry Straha, it could be worse.

I know a guy who's always counting the leaves on the trees.

Summertime, he's always very very busy.

[Straha]

Originally posted by Immer Etwas:

Not to worry Straha, it could be worse.

I know a guy who's always counting the leaves on the trees.

Summertime, he's always very very busy.

Puhh, that's indeed worse.

Still, seriously, imagine a game showing California on the map (it is just about comparable in size to the Reich of the 30ies.) Now, the present locations of Essen and Frankfurt in Germany can be compared to SF being way North of the Bay and Sacramento being located on the Bay instead. Now would you think that someone pointing this out would be a leave-counter?

It's all a matter of perspective!

Straha

[Hubert Cater]

Sorry Straha that's as good as it's going to get

Like I said there is a limitation to the hex based system and how things have been implemented. What you are going to have to do is imagine that the city is located in that hex but not necessarily right in the center of the hex. So for Essen imagine that it is located at the bottom left corner of the hex, for Frankfurt it's located near the bottom of the hex and Prague would be actually located in the top portion of the hex or something like that. Looking at it this way you might agree that it's close enough

[Straha]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

Sorry Straha that's as good as it's going to get

Well, I'm still hoping. Here's why :

Like I said there is a limitation to the hex based system and how things have been implemented.

In this case, though, it has nothing to do with limitations of the hex system. Pushing Essen one hex South and Frankfurt one hex South-East would make things look just right.

What you are going to have to do is imagine that the city is located in that hex but not necessarily right in the center of the hex. So for Essen imagine that it is located at the bottom left corner of the hex, for Frankfurt it's located near the bottom of the hex and Prague would be actually located in the top portion of the hex or something like that. Looking at it this way you might agree that it's close enough.

Hubert. Of course, you have better things to do right now than making another map change. Still, I somehow trust in that deep down you are not really satisfied yourself with what you just wrote.

Some day, when you have all the remaining biggies done, you will feel the irresistible urge to lay hand on that map for one last time ...

Straha

[ May 03, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Straha ]

[Hubert Cater]

Honestly the game offers much more than the exact locations of a few cities, and this is not something that I really think is all that important, but if giving you a few more details will close this subject I am more than willing to do so.

In general map hexes cannot contain both a river and a city hex (either or only), so by moving Essen down a hex, the river will have to be redrawn and you will not get the nice elbow that's in there. Besides if moved down 1 hex it will be lower than Brussels which would definitly not be geographically correct. So like I said, imagine that it is in the lower left corner of the hex. As for Frankfurt I don't think it's really that big a deal, but if renaming it Cologne will help then I can do that.

Believe me that there are many, many, many such inacuracies in the game and like I said I've dealt with them as best as I could given the system I was working with. You can take a look at Ted's screenshot of the big map (don't remember the exact thread it was in) and you will notice things like the eastern edge of Sicily starting roughly below Brussels when it should be started somwhere below Munich, or that Athens is located west of Sophia when it should be east and so on.

As far as the map goes right now I am more than satisfied and strongly feel that it gives you the main idea. Like I said before sorry but you are just going to have to live with it

[Straha]

Hubert, thanks for the thorough reply.

Indeed, I did not notice the problem with the river when Essen would be moved South. So I now see that my suggestion really doesn't work. (Btw. as far as Brussels goes, I thought it is meant to be Antwerp, like in some other games. )

In case you do not want to relocate any cities anymore, renaming Essen to Muenster and Frankfurt to Cologne would be consistent.

In case of Frankfurt, relocation is still an option. (On a personal note: maybe I think this is something of a deal because, even though I'm in the States now, I spent my youth in the vicinity of Frankfurt ... the Rhine and Cologne was a FAR away trip! Plus we kids used to be amused about tourists looking at the Main saying "look, darling, that beautiful Rhine river!" )

Straha

PS: I did not miss that the game offers more than just a map. Adding the subwarfare feature is far more important than the location of any city. Having said this, I will drop the subject now.

[ May 03, 2002, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Straha ]

[Andrew H.]

FWIW, I think the decision not to show Kiel as a two ocean city is correct. While it's true that the Kiel canal does permit ships to travel from Kiel to the North sea, that's not the same has having the ships already in the north sea (the way that they are already in the baltic). If it became important to have ships be able to travel from Kiel to the North sea, the best way to do this would probably be by having special canal transport rules. Keep in mind that ships in the canal would have to travel single file, would probably be very vulnerable to attack - and one sunk ship might close down the whole canal.

So it's probably better not to bother with it at all.

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Straha:

PS: I did not miss that the game offers more than just a map. Adding the subwarfare feature is far more important than the location of any city. Having said this, I will drop the subject now

Fair enough and I apologize if I seemed curt I do understand the concerns and I would like to make it as accurate as possible (I'll change Frankfurt to Cologne ), it's just that some things are done for a reason that may not be immediately apparent until the game is actually played or because of design limitations. And honestly, for some of these, in a way I don't want to get into the habit of defending each one because then otherwise the game will never get finished as I would spend more time here than actually coding :eek:

So just to let you know the exact answer to another question "why there are two cities along the Rhine as opposed to the inclusion of Vienna?", the basic idea here is that each city represents a portion of a countries income, that said, each one of these resources can be damaged by strategic bombing of some sort, so since much of Germany's industrial hearland was in the Ruhr/Rhine area it makes more sense from a gameplay standpoint to make these targets available to the Allied player i.e. US/UK bombers (from England) to target and damage in order to hinder the German income rather than swap for a city that may never get touched kind of thing. So then it was just a toss up between including either Prague or Vienna, so I went with Prague. Btw this also made sense to move the mine icon up into the Ruhr area as you've suggested so I did this

Suggestions are always welcome, and I think that since I have incorporated many of them it shows that I am very flexible, but by the same token you've just got to trust me on the few of them that I do turn down

Hubert

[rleete]

Hubert, this is exactly the kind of excellent support and feedback that we've all come to expect from BTS. It is heartening to see that they have teamed up with another with the same values. This kind of reasonable discourse, and willingness to make compromises bodes well for you and SC.

Now stop posting, and give us the game!

[[Wiking]]

Hubert, this is exactly the kind of excellent support and feedback that we've all come to expect from BTS. It is heartening to see that they have teamed up with another with the same values. This kind of reasonable discourse, and willingness to make compromises bodes well for you and SC.

I agree completely, this is exactly why I love all BTS products and why I love coming to this messageboard. An atmosphere of cooperation and tranquility is present which IMHO I never saw on any other board. Shucks, I feel as though I could tell you guys all my problems and you'd be there to help. And that's a great feeling!

[Straha]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

SNIP so since much of Germany's industrial hearland was in the Ruhr/Rhine area it makes more sense from a gameplay standpoint to make these targets available to the Allied player i.e. US/UK bombers (from England) to target and damage in order to hinder the German income rather than swap for a city that may never get touched kind of thing. SNIP

Understood and 100% agreed!

And, like the others already said: thanks for your openmindedness and patience. This makes the game and this board special. :cool: You have our full support in return.

[Hubert Cater]

Cool

[Mr. Clark]

NOW GET IN THERE AND FINISH THE GAME!!!!!!