COMBAT MISSIONS: Tiger's Mods @ CMs

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Scipio wrote:

Tiger, people like Aitken and Slappy are absolutly not intersted in your opinion, arguments or any word that you say (write). They are only interested to see themself as winner in a discussion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I might point out that this is direct defamation, and far more insulting than anything Tiger has put up with, but do you see me throwing a tantrum and leaving?

[Battlefront.com]

Priest:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Gee Steve I wish you would show a little more compassion. Tiger and Marco and many many many many others that have even made one mod have helped guide us to what is possible with this engine. CMBB's graphics are influenced by these mod artists. Charles in an article praises all the modmakers and scenario makers around.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really do like the fact that modders are around and are offering alternatives to CM's original graphics. But I have to look at the bigger picture. And that is the quality of discussion here on this forum. This sort of thing has happened before and I do NOT like things getting blown out of proportion. One person decided he didn't want to post anymore, and all of a sudden the BBS is an unfriendly pile of stinky poo. That is a direct insult to the vast majority of people here and to those who moderate it (including me).

Steve

[Priest]

Thumpre Tiger is talented and there are few as talented as he out there. Sorry but if we took a concensus of who was the best Tiger would be up in the top 3-5 for sure. Also Scipio I forgot to include the SoundModders for the game as your sounds are pretty much all I hear when anything fires a gun or explodes or flys or shoots or....well you get the picture. And why are we trying to explain this? Just make a lovefest of apologies (someone involved be a man and step up already) and try to make sure it does not happen again.

[Ales Dvorak]

Tiger......

David, how about new Town scenario?

Regards

Ales

[Priest]

I understand that Steve and trust me no one here wants to distract you or make your job any harder. The difference is that if I stated that I was through with this forum and this game forever and posted it no one would care. In fact the only response I would get would be "HI MOMS" from the regular PENG threaders because they would do that to anybody. The fact that this has caused an uproar reinforces the fact of his importance. Price we all (moderators and members) pay i guess.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

Tiger, people like Aitken and Slappy are absolutly not intersted in your opinion, arguments or any word that you say (write). They are only interested to see themself as winner in a discussion. Because of that (in this case it was Slappy) I was also already close to leave this forum. It is so unbelievable boring to discuss something with that kind of people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scipio, this is a totally silly comment, and part of the downfall of serious discussions on this board. You need to reread your posts -- you post a demand of BTS to explain why something works the way it does and not the other, so I and others (I just happen to be a kicking boy on the subject) asked you to please explain why you felt that way, what tests you had run to determine the game ran how it ran, and perhaps to fill us in on your reasoning behind asking BTS to change how armor fighting happens. You reacted very badly to this even though three of us where trying to explain to you what we meant in asking you for more data.

So, you think that I do not listen to you, then you never read the responses I made, even going so far as to test your concepts of how the game worked and to exchange my data with others on the thread.

Please Scipio, no one has ever flamed you, and no one wants to. You don't need to go lighting a flamethrowing in a discussion that is already volatile.

Doubts III

[ParaBellum]

OK.

Could everybody take a deep breath?

Come on, it's not that hard.

All is quiet...I'm am calm...peace....

And now alltogether:

"Ommmmmmmmmm..."

Hey, you there! Relax! Yes, you !

OK, let's do it together again:

"Ommmmmmm!"

Feel better?

[Fieldmarshall]

What is the point of leaving Tiger? Yes you posted a thread that had been answerd and I was one of the few that stood on your side, but I have to say this, if you leave and take your mods with you, I can garantee this: NOT one person in this board will respect you, you get shot at a few times, and you surrender, and take your country with you, if you thought you were badily insulted in the "Body BMP" Thread, you should just wait for the response that will come when you leave, the only thing that you will leave behind if you take your mods with you, will be resentment, and everyone will think you can not stand up for your self and fight back all you can do is pack up and leave, it will only provoke more people into arguing and browbeating, because you have to blame everyone but yourself. Yes many of the responses were utter dribble. And some were rational, but you have to expect that, that is life, it will always be life, and one has to put up with it. If you think all will be solved by you heading for the hills you are wrong, it will only make things worse for you, and the CM community..

-Fieldmarshall

[Tiger]

Amen Scipio.

It wasn't this actually that made me want to remove my mods. I dunno. Just feeling pretty lethargic; I have not touched a paint program since last April (no joking). It's probably less that other topic and more of a general wanting to "shut out" everything and disappear kind of thing. It's a feeling I've been wrestling with for some time and I think the 'other topic' may have just brought it out more.

-Tiger

[Ales Dvorak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ParaBellum:

OK.

Could everybody take a deep breath?

Come on, it's not that hard.

All is quiet...I'm am calm...peace....

And now alltogether:

"Ommmmmmmmmm..."

Hey, you there! Relax! Yes, you !

OK, let's do it together again:

"Ommmmmmm!"

Feel better?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, which turn?

[Cubbies Phan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Same thing happened when another modder was rightly slapped around for having downloaded a pirated copy of Combat Mission. He took his ball and went home too, and I can tell you I do not miss him at all.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I may be wrong on this, but if memory serves, the person you're referring to and Tiger maybe one in the same age group, so that may explain the whole thing.

[Battlefront.com]

Tiger,

I read that thread (just as Matt closed it) with absolutely no bias towards anybody. I thought the question you asked was fair, but your imediate jump on Rett was rather illustrative of how the thread was going to go. There hasn't been a "dead body" thread yet that has survived for more than a few posts before it got ugly. The VERY FIRST response to your question pointed that out, and it was pointed out further in.

I'm sory you got your toes stepped on, but I am more sorry that you choose to let it bother you while not understanding that you were in part to blame for what happened. You can do whatever you like, but I personally think you are way over reacting. However, each person is built differently, so I am not judging you. Just my humble opinion

I am also getting more and more annoyed with the Jihad against anybody with a strong opinion to express. If someone doesn't want to be subjected to strong counter arguments to the statements they post, please find another place to post. We need critical thinking here, not an attitude of "it's my post, everybody else hands off". Obviously there are better ways to do this than others, but I detect a strain of thinking here that is against ANY challenges to ANY point, no matter how reasonable. This is not good.

I also want to know why it is excusable for the defenders of Tiger (or dead bodies, or whatever) in that thread to bash other people, including BTS (and we weren't even part of it), and then want to complain about the other side during and after? I recall quite a few unrestrained personal attacks against people that were just trying to debate the points, and many of them were made by those who agreed with Tiger. Intollerence of others' opinions is not a respectable quality in our book.

Steve

[Panzer_Meyer]

I say Tiger should take the mods with him, imidiately. Like I said I don't blame him one bit for leaving.

Some people don't care if you take the mods or not other want you to leave them. some say you are worse than anyone alse for wanting the mods of the sites. But I say take them off. Maybe, just maybe some people will think twice, but that is doubtfull.

Good luck, Tiger!

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Tiger wrote:

Amen Scipio.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, paranoia all right.

Anyway, Tiger has now stated that his reasons for leaving and withdrawing his work are not entirely to do with the 'dead body' debate, so how about we let him go and move on?

[tiborhead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Intollerence of others' opinions is not a respectable quality in our book.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep-Yep. My Book says the same as well, only my book isn't that good.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: tiborhead ]

[Moriarty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

Gee Steve I wish you would show a little more compassion. Tiger and Marco and many many many many others that have even made one mod have helped guide us to what is possible with this engine. CMBB's graphics are influenced by these mod artists. Charles in an article praises all the modmakers and scenario makers around. We are not just losing a contributor (which is bad) but we are now losing a leader. Again. And I think the most disturbing comment on this entire thread is the seperation of the MBT thread and the "outer forum". What the hell is that? We all belong to the forum and as such should support each other and discuss (and argue, not flame or fight) the two things we all love: CM and WWII. Like I said before the issues of elitism and holier than though attitude are really grating. Get over it!

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Priest, this is the second or third time in as many threads that you have intimated the Cesspool, aka MBT, comprises elitist and holier-than-thou board members. If that is your opinion of it, you seriously misunderstand the purpose and location of the pool.

I will not delve into an epic discussion of Seanachai proportions. I will say, however, that the pool is neither elitist nor holier-than-thou. It caters to the lowest common denominator: fun. Admittedly, it is rude, childish, contemptuous, bile-laden and politically incorrect, but it is open to anyone.

Yes, there are rules clearly stated, although the numbering can be bewildering, above and beyond the rules of conduct of the board. These rules do not suit everyone and the vast majority of the board wants no part of it. But that is the individual's decision. The individual excludes himself from the pool, not vice versa. The differentiation between the Outer Board and the 'Pool is such because the members view the 'Pool as a haven from some of the intellectually disguised silliness that goes on out here.

Lastly, the Cesspool exists as it does because BTS wants it contained for the benefit of the majority who do not want any part of it. And with the exception of the occasional "leak," which is rapidly attended to by His Baldness, our faithful steward, that is how it will remain until BTS decides otherwise.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Moriarty ]

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

Yup, paranoia all right.

Anyway, Tiger has now stated that his reasons for leaving and withdrawing his work are not entirely to do with the 'dead body' debate, so how about we let him go and move on?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am getting a bit tired of this grog bashing. Maybe some people should just start playing Sudden Strike if they don't like Grognards, I am sure their forums will be glad to have you.

As they say around here:

Goodbye and good riddance.

[Ales Dvorak]

funny funeral :confused:

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest:

I understand that Steve and trust me no one here wants to distract you or make your job any harder. The difference is that if I stated that I was through with this forum and this game forever and posted it no one would care. In fact the only response I would get would be "HI MOMS" from the regular PENG threaders because they would do that to anybody. The fact that this has caused an uproar reinforces the fact of his importance. Price we all (moderators and members) pay i guess.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Priest, I would care. If you left in an adult manner it would be a loss.

On the other hand if you asked me to spit on my mother's grave, wipe my butt with my flag, or go against some very core values I grew up with, then I would have to sadly wave by.

The issue for me, as I said in the last post, is not Tiger leaving. He will leave or not -- I take 25 times the abuse because of my philosphical beliefs than he does for his mods, so I don't really feel sorry for him, and although I think his swan song is a bullet in his own foot I have dealt with so many artists in the past that a melodramatic exit just can't get me upset one way or the other. In fact, when an artist tells you he or she is not going on because the fruit in the dressing room was warm, you just shrug and live with it unless you were dumb enough to sign a contract specifying cold fruit.

So perhaps I am callous to this sort of thing and don't like to toady just to keep someone happy.

But more importantly we are talking about the bigger question of intellectual discourse on the board. There is a surprisingly large number of people who are anti-intellectual here, surprising because wargame BBS use to be havens for people who are interested in history and all that. It has gotten so bad that all anyone has to do is quote a book, and they get accused of unfair elitism and flaming.

I wish I could make you see the end result of a wash of people against intellectual conversation, it happened on Usenet, and it could happen here, if all the censors will allow is critcism of the game followed by 50 pages of "right on".

Personally also, I think I am just a convenient target for Tiger. I do not think I had anything to do with his leaving, just that I represent the "other side" regarding intellectualism and am thus a general target for everyone who hated history class in school. So an apology by me to Tiger would not only not be genuine, but it likely wont work.

Besides, if Scipio can be offended by a discussion that included no flames and only a discussion of his ideas, then this forum may well be doomed, and those beta testers will be the only people to contribute to the game.

[Fieldmarshall]

Trust me if you want accuracy and replayability DONT GET SUDDEN STRIKE I have it, and I regret it deepely I went back to CM in about an hour...Jeese they had ELEPHANTS on the western front and they had a JAGDTIGER in 1941 in france..JEESE!!!

-Field

[Pvt. Ryan]

Will the creators of future mods please be kind enough to include an expiration date with their mods so we know for how long we can expect to use them? That way we can avoid the trouble of downloading mods that have a very limited shelf life, or we can have the opportunity to archive them before they expire. All of the masters do this. The next time you are in an art gallery take the time to examine the back of the artwork and you will see these expiration dates. And as a public service I would like to alert you all that the Mona Lisa is due to expire on 5/30/02, so you better hurry if you haven't seen it yet. Davinci hasn't put out any quality work for a while, so it's just as well.

[Ales Dvorak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan:

Will the creators of future mods please be kind enough to include an expiration date with their mods so we know for how long we can expect to use them? That way we can avoid the trouble of downloading mods that have a very limited shelf life, or we can have the opportunity to archive them before they expire. All of the masters do this. The next time you are in an art gallery take the time to examine the back of the artwork and you will see these expiration dates. And as a public service I would like to alert you all that the Mona Lisa is due to expire on 5/30/02, so you better hurry if you haven't seen it yet. Davinci hasn't put out any quality work for a while, so it's just as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not fair:

[Cubbies Phan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

I don't blame tiger a bit. I don't think he left becuase of that one incident. People have been flming him before. For the mods he put out. some smart alec always came along and said the mods sucked an so and so. Tiger tried to improve it, but some people keep b*tching at him telling him the mods were poor. Most of the people saying this to tiger didn't even create mods.

He got pissed and left and stopped doing mods. So when the "blood" thread came around I think thats what finnaly made him leave. that was the final straw, IMO.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However the difference was that the people that were critiquing his mods were telling him how to improve them, but Tiger refused to listen. It was like it was Tiger's way and nothing else. His actions then turned me off to his mods.

I do however use his last PzIVE Tiger mod as it *is* the best he ever did. I don't know how he created it, but it sure was different than his earlier attempts.

[Battlefront.com]

Rommel 22 wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Some people don't care if you take the mods or not other want you to leave them. some say you are worse than anyone alse for wanting the mods of the sites. But I say take them off. Maybe, just maybe some people will think twice, but that is doubtfull.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is there to think twice about? If someone posts here I don't want ANYBODY to think twice about challenging/supporting it if they think it to be off/on the mark. At least not in the way you are apparently asking for. What a horrible waste of space and time this BBS would be if everybody had to go through some sort of complex thought process to determine if they should challenge a person's point based on who that person is. Something like:

"Ok, I don't agree with that point, but he made a really swell set of boot mods. I guess I won't challenge him in case he gets his feeligns hurt"

This is BS. It is anti-intellectual, self serving censorship that will produce only crap discussions. It is a waste of everybody's time to have a place like this.

Now, if you meant people should think twice before they FLAME someone, then I agree with you 100%. But I don't care if it is some newbie making his first post or some member that has been around since before we even called the game Combat Mission. People shouldn't be rude to each other just for the sake of being mean. Disagreement is fine, abuse is not.

In that thread I saw several people abusing others. I left the thread with an unscientific opinion (i.e. gut sense) that the majority of abuse was being directed at people in support of Tiger's original request, not the other way around. As I have pointed out, Tiger was in fact the first one to get personal (saying sorry doesn't change that fact). Even if each side of the argument shared in the abusive behavior 50/50, the notion that there is ONE set of "bad guys" here is totally off the mark.

Steve

[Cubbies Phan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

I'm sorry I didn't know or remember BTS's position on casualty kill-markers but I certainly don't think it required the response it got from some of the regulars on this forum who treat people like dirt to fulfill some need to feel superior on a forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you couldn't have. You weren't around at the time when the Gold Demo suddenly showed up with the dead body casualties marker. In the Beta Demo, the squads just simply disappeared. BTS put the current "marker" in for basically visual reference that a squad had expired and to later check AAR stats. It was never meant to supply that FPS or "Myth-type" blood and gore state that you were apparently wanting to mod. This very issue was discussed to death in May 2000. IIRC, you didn't appear until sometime in the Fall.

The "argument" insued because members like Aitken and Slapdragon tried telling you this, but you wouldn't accept it as being elitist posting to boast their egos.