Playing CMBO is glorifying war?

[vskalex]

No, it's not me saying that. This was a comment from my girlfriend who actually meant that by playing wargames, such as CMBO,you actually contribute to the cruelty of this world. My reply was, of course, that she was way off course and that it is people that hurt each other, not games. I then tried her to convince her about the strategic and tactic aspects of the game, meaning that you of course try to prevent your own guys from getting killed. Finally she gave in, but I'm not totally sure I convinced her 100% (women!)

Now my question to you all, do you also get to hear this alot?

[Nabla]

I must admit that although I play CM I have to agree with your girlfriend to some degree. At least for me playing games like this does exercise the strategic and military side of the mind, which has an affect on how I look at things related to war.

A good example is the possible attack to Afghanistan in the current terrorist crisis. If I think about the situation strategically I focus on issues concerning the military feasibility of the attack. At least in me such thinking is pronounced if I play games of war. On the other hand, if I look at the situation from the point of view of civilians I see enormous suffering of innocent civilians.

Human mind seems to have the tendency to automate things you practise consciously. A local actor mentioned in a newspaper recently that you have to exercise your humanity just as you would exercise any other property, such as physical fitness or strategic thinking. As long as you remember that I think your ok. After all, playing really does not hurt anyone.

[Stixx]

I can't remember who said but one famous bloke said "Every thought you think is making your future"

I don't think anyone that plays CM or any other computer games WANTS a WAR. That doesn't mean that playing computer games doesn't change the way we think, i'm sure it does.

[Guest BigAlMoho]

Hello,

I know I have said this before, but it still works for me:

"War is the absolute, best game ever invented, and the absolute worst reality."

Al

[greywolf]

If playing wargames actually contributed to human cruelty, then ask her if she thinks the Taliban, the Serbs in Kosovo, the Tutsi tribes in Rwanda, or basically any major attrocity in recent memory was commited by people who played, let alone had access to any type of computer war game?

Now look at some of the shootings in the US. Never were wargames mentioned. AT most, they mentioned shoot 'em ups like Doom. I think people who play *real* war games would never conribute to human cruelity because they operate on a slightly higher of thought than someone who plays quake all day. They understand reality versus fantasy, computer images vs real people.

[vskalex]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by greywolf:

[QB]If playing wargames actually contributed to human cruelty, then ask her if she thinks the Taliban, the Serbs in Kosovo, the Tutsi tribes in Rwanda, or basically any major attrocity in recent memory was commited by people who played, let alone had access to any type of computer war game?

[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, her main argument was really that you glorify the suffering of the people involved, civilians and soldiers, in ww2. My argument was that in CMBO you really want to stay away from sending your own guys to death, and that by playing you actually increase your understanding of the horror these people suffered.

[Redwolf]

Hey, greywolf, nice nickname

Personally, I would partly agree with the comment of your girlfriend (vskalex).

However, the example I use with my wife is that if you are interested in whales, you study the cruelity of whale hunt and you certainly think one time or another about a strategy to end this.

"Playing" CMBO can party be seen as studying the subject.

As long as I don't claim it's all like anti-whaling, but use the argument to just ligthen the accusion that we enjoy war, I usually come out fine. My wife recently scored a draw against me in a serious Quickbattle, it can't be that bad anyway

[Michael Dorosh]

There is a famous quote (I think I read it in the rulebook for a computer wargame, tell the truth...) that says

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Men like war because it is the only thing that stops women from laughing at them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That of course applies to real war, not pretend war...so the short answer is that it doesn't matter what you're doing - you will be laughed at by the fairer sex anyway!

It's a good question to ask though - I prefer to think of it as glorifying not war, but the strength and courage our veterans showed in times of great adversity, and in trying to understand what they went through in some small way.

I have done lots of things that could be called glorification of war - I collect uniforms, weapons and equipment, I used to build models as a kid, I read the DC war comics (as well as Marvel's HOWLIN' COMMANDOS and the Charlton lines as well), I watch war movies, read war books, and have published two books of my own on Canadian Army uniforms. Wargaming is nothing new to me either. WW II is a passion for me - and I have been called "obsessed" and accused of glorifying war.

I am likely not the only one on this forum - in fact, I know there are others equally, or even more passionate about the subject, than I am.

But I have never killed anyone - in fact, though I like firearms and fire them regularly, I have never shot at a single living creature. Never been in a fight, either, and while I am in the military and would do whatever my country asked of me, I have no illusions about what a war would be like.

In fact, I would like to think that I have a better idea of how terrible it would be than someone who grew up on a steady diet of Rambo films.

So while I know that war is not fun, the question is - does my playing CM mean that others might see what I do and presume war is okay? Well, I don't think I have the ultimate responsibility for teaching others about war - though as a re-enactor and historian, I do feel a certain degree of that responsibility, and if I was a parent, then the ultimate responsibility is of course mine (and the education system).

I should hope that something like CM would get kids, or adults, to seek out more information on their own about WW II, and that it would be more than just their only window into the historial past.

Your girlfriend's concerns are valid. If playing CM makes you think less of Germans (or Poles, French, etc.) or has you convinced in some way that being in a war would be fun, well, that isn't a positive thing.

But to learn about anything - war included - there does have to be a certain amount of fun. And while re-enactors or wargamers may talk about loftier goals - preservation of the past or education - I see no sin in admitting they are having fun while they are doing it.

[mensch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vskalex:

Now my question to you all, do you also get to hear this alot?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Vskalex (jeez whatda Allias you got.. almost like OGSFABSWUStomp'nJimmy)

anyhow back to the subject, no. At first the wife kinda wondered about it, her being german and the only thing they learn about the second world war is they are bad people and they should feel sorry even today.. bad bad germans. When I showed her places in France and told her stuff she got intrested, would you belive she had no idea Americans, Canucks, French, Poles and Brits, and more landed in Normandy!! :eek:

So thinking this was a one time thing and maybe cuz she's a girl but I am suprized the general public has no idea, unless you have a armour nut like Warphead or lads like Lindan and The Desert Fox, Germanboy.. how they got interested in History and War in general in Germany is a wonder they were not hunted down by flocks of people screaming "you should not show interest in this stuff!!".

What I am anoyed of is when I am ordering models or *Gasp* the OOB of the SS and Falschirmjäger Units or heck playing CMBO, Nobby friends of her saying things like

"Is that a Nazi book?"

"is Greg playing a NAZI game??"

"why are there SS in that game, yes most definatly a NAZI GAME!!"

etc...

even my wife knows the difference, heck over time my wife knows what a Gyrostablizer is or a Sturmgeschutz is. which blew me away!!! Heck she knows when a box of Fallschirmjäger from Dragon comes in and asks what that is, and I say WOOPIE!!! Fallschirmjägers!! WOoT! (yes she knows what woot is too!)

she smiles and says "ugh, another box? I guess that will go with your StuH 42 huh?"

yes knock my socks off she said that!!

am I rambling here, hmm yup. ok I'll stop now.

ps be happy you don't live here in fear of people finding out you actually are interested in History/War.

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: mensch ]

[Marlow]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mensch:

When I showed her places in France and told her stuff she got intrested, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the real question is: can she beat you at CM?

[Enoch]

Does anyone else think that vskalex might be MrSpkr's illegitimate son?

I think that games that are more based in reality, such as Combat Mission, are much less harmful than fantasy games like Doom or Quake. I don't really think that computers games are as much a problem as people suggest. I think the bigger problem is that parents often fail to teach their kids the real consequences of real violence.

[mensch]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marlow:

But the real question is: can she beat you at CM?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

shhh! don't remind me. Let's change the subject back, wether she beat me twice is irrelivant.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enoch:

Does anyone else think that vskalex might be MrSpkr's illegitimate son<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, while the laws of probability might tend to lean that way based upon the number of, well, er, encounters I engaged in before I got married, the obvious lack of intelligence on the part of pickleboy and his girlfriend would tend to rule that possibility out entirely.

I wonder if his girlfriend thinks my kids are glorifying obesity when they play Candyland? It's a game, people -- it is an escape from reality that doesn't tend to glorify or denigrate war. Only the values YOU place on the game will do that.

[Nabla]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigAlMoho:

I know I have said this before, but it still works for me:

"War is the absolute, best game ever invented, and the absolute worst reality."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good one

[MikeyD]

I must admit, when after the end of a 25 minute battle I'm finally in posession of some obscure collection of houses in the French countryside and I realise 105 of my little men and 220 of their little men are either dead or wounded, a small part of me does ask if I should be enjoying this as much as I do.

I'm reminded of when Churchill wrote about his time as a young man fighting in S. Africa. He found the sound of bullets wizzing overhead to be immensely exhilerating. This trick was to not get yourself killed in the process.

[Priest]

Ask her if playing Chess contributes to the suffering of man?

[Cribtop Gamer]

I think that the comments about Doom vs. CM are spot on. It seems to me that the hardcore wargaming culture of kids in the 70's and 80's (well, I was a kid then), with its respect for history and detailed rules, has faded to the background in favor of things like Doom, WWF RAW is WAR, Jerry Springer, etc.

Not to slam anyone (since I played Doom a lot too), but gorefests like Doom and WWF seem to me to glorify a sort of cartoonish violence. In this form of "entertainment violence," it's more important to look "bad" and to taunt your enemies, visiting violence on them is just a confirmation of your superior status as set forth in the original posturing (think about the percentage of a WWF show that is consumed by pre-fight talking - same thing with boxing, really).

This reminds me of two male rams or walruses sparring for mating rights or the sorts of tribal "warfare" in Hawaii where two groups of armed men would stare at each other for hours making mean and scary faces until one side showed weakness. If neither side showed weakness, they called it off and had a big BBQ (no kidding).

If "entertainment violence," which has been dressed up to remove the real suffering but which encourages puffing out your chest and engaging in provacative acts, is your only source of understanding about violence and war; then yes, I think you may be tempted to engage in provocation without a good understanding of the consequences if something actually "goes down."

This is the attitude I see in today's "tough guys," and it's disturbing. What rational actor would risk life in prison or lethal injection by killing someone over a traffic incident or pair of shoes? The risk-reward just isn't there, and real violence erupts when posturing gets out of control.

CMBO, on the other hand, teaches a professional attitude about war that is respectful of history - including causes of war and sacrifices of the participants. I think that most of us feel awful when we get our men beaten up in CMBO.

Last night I was playing the Carentan operation and had a great little attack going on the first town. Everyone was in place and I was waiting for 155s to get the German's heads down before the final assault. For some reason, my arty was delayed, so I made the mistake of waiting until it came. This let the Germans call down mortars on my assembled assault force with ugly results. The 155s finally came, though, and I was so proud of my veteran glider troops who ran out of the mortar barrage and stormed the town anyway. Truly, my thoughts were "thanks guys, for moving on even though your CO got a lot of you killed."

At battle's end, the town was mine at the price of 74 casualties, 22 of which were KIA. This was one of my biggest casualty figures ever against the AI, and my gut was in a knot about it.

Recently, my wife confronted me about not being outwardly shocked or depressed by the WTC attack. I was thinking and talking about the military and geopolitical implications rather than the human element, while she was having nightmares about being on the planes.

I think this effect comes because hardcore wargamers who know history have, in some small way, undergone military training, and view war with the professional detachment necessary to survive when your buddy gets hit.

I personally don't feel bad about this - a nation needs warriors to courageously defend it as much as it needs compassionate rescue workers to nurture and heal it.

What we don't need are a bunch of yokels who think that war and violence have no consequences, but I feel confident in stating that few if any CMBO players have that attitude.

Wow, sorry for the oration guys.

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: Cribtop Gamer ]

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeyD:

I'm reminded of when Churchill wrote about his time as a young man fighting in S. Africa. He found the sound of bullets wizzing overhead to be immensely exhilerating. This trick was to not get yourself killed in the process.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Churchill was a reporter, as I recall, not a soldier in South Africa.

And it was George Washington IIRC who said there was "something charming in the sound of whistling bullets."

I think Churchill said "nothing is more exhilirating than to be shot at without result."

Happy to be corrected on any of that.

[Lordfluffers]

War games usually attempt to recreate war rather than glorify it. IF a war game does it job well, it should goive a player some idea about how terrible and cruel war was. CMBO does this very well IMO. Watching the way troops have been blown away or watching the sheer destructiveness of artillery, armor pushes home what a terrible thing war is. Also I believe that learning and understanding the past helps us learn about how to stop similiar situations happening again. I love war games but I hope I never have to become embroiled in war in my life. Some games arguably glorify war or killing such as Soldier of Fortune, however all this is supposed to be light hearted entertainment. I doubt any pc gamer really would consider war fun or enjoy these situations in real life!!!

[Commissar]

IF some moron goes out and commits acts of violence because of some game, that kid was well screwed up long before the game could "affect" them. It was just a matter of time.

Your girlfriend's arguments are utterly nonsensical The great butchers fo the world never had access to wargames as we play them. I've been playing them since I was eight and play plenty of first person shooters but have never had the desire to inflict violence on anyone. It's like arguing that I am an anti-semetic because I watched "Schlinder's List" or that I think slavery is great because I read "Roots". People really need to stop commenting on things they know jack-squat about. At least educate yourself first before making grand, overgeneralized declarationas and accusations. They'll at least look less foolish and have less garbage thrown at them.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Nice Oration Cribtop gamer.

Sounds like you girlfriend should be your wife Mensch. Better do it quick before another CMBOer gets a hold of her.

Asked my girlfriend if games glorifying war. We agree that wargames work on the brain diffrently than Max Payne (FPS). In MP you only have to get your main charcter to the end of the block. But in CM you have to get your platoon to the end of the block. And we all know a lot can happen in that small space, there could be 6 MGs in one of those buldings and then all your men are dead.

But she does not think wargames are bad. She amazingly thinks war is natural. I think its a moot point. Genghis Khan and Hitler did not play any video games? So why you care if I do? I think humans will continue fighting until the humans unite together for a few hundred years. Then we could enjoy peace.

[vskalex]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ps be happy you don't live here in fear of people finding out you actually are interested in History/War.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks you guys, you basically used all my arguments for playing CMBO. And Mensch, my girlfriend is also german which might explain her weird reaction? And speaking of fear, hey, I live in Sweden a country that is getting so politically correct so that soon the nazis didn't exist.

My main argument though, is that by playing such games as CMBO, which are based on reality, should make people more aware of what really happened and seek out more info.

[Gen-x87H]

*Yawn* She is in the same group that is suing ID software over Doom because the kids who shot up columbine played the game and designed a level looking like the school.

Apparently the lwyer called the game amilitary simulation ROTFLMAO! Unless the military is expecting the gates of hell to open up and have monsters and big orange\red baloon heads flying around I can imgaine how this is considered a military simulation.

Gen

[Jarmo]

I love wargames. I love warmovies. I love war literature. There's certainly something about the big guns, thick armour and mass destruction that appeals to me. It's something primal about power, something phallic.

I also love the competition, pitting my strategies, my intelligence, against an opponent. Again something primal.

But I don't love or like war. War is an atrocity. All war, there are no good ones.

Once again, I don't really know what my point is or what my actual thoughts are. These things are mainly in the subconscious level.

Dunno, maybe it's my conscious, rational side that knows war and killing are bad things. And all the while there's a little caveman of my subconscious who just wants a really big gun to blow things up with..

[Tero]

vskalex: does your girlfriend think a game of chess is immoral glorification of war ? If not then you should point out that basically CM is nothing more than a bit more ellaborate game of chess. And the sad fact is that even if we burned all our books and war games people still get killed in war each and every second.

I think that denying kid the possibility to play war will deprive them of the possibility to learn some basic facts about human behaviour when they can still learn such things as compassion and where to draw the limit in respoding in anger. Kids who have never played war with their friends will never think the "enemy" is another human being, only because they can not envision their best friends in the opposing force. When they hook on games like Doom they will not be able to feel a thing for the poor pixelized monster when they blow them away by the hundred. The past few decades has seen this "girlie" approach on raising children and the ban on "violent" toys. And now they wonder how the youth these days are so violent and with no ability for compassion. We are reaping what we have sown.

People who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it. But in order to learn from the past you have to know enough facts and basic truths about it to form an opinion that turns into a learning curve.

I have spent many an hour discussing the futility of war with the wife. In my view war is rather like a force of nature while she think people should have learned already.

She goes to see war flicks with me, preferably to see one with a decent story line. She liked the opening sequence of SPR because of its realism. She also liked the Thin Red Line. She absolutely hated Pearl Harbour. Not because of the historical inaccuracies (which ticked me off) but because the nurses acted like horny 20-year old girls of our era, she also wondered about the speed with which the leading nurse forgot her true love (and how they killed off the odd man out in the end so as not to complicate the story line too much ). The level of professionalism of the nurses in the film was something she detested also.

We both agreed it was a remake of Titanic, only they sank more ships (disrespect intended only for the movie makers, not the troops in Pearl Harbour). We plan on renting Tora Tora Tora ASAP for a second opinion on Pearl Harbour in movies. TCM is showing "30 seconds over Tokyo" so that aspect has already been covered.

She also sort of liked Starship Trooper, except she would like it more if there was a bit less gore in it.

This is BTW something she has been wondering for quite some time now: the movies have become more and more photorealistic but the storylines and the morals of the stories keep plummeting.

With the recent goings on in the world she is convinced the movie industry has been quietly indoctrinating us so that the reaction of the "confident consumer" will be under the control of the media when the time comes. And that time seems to be upon us.

While the deed itself was horrific and condemnable she has said the only real consequence of the incident she has seen is the laying off nearly 100 000 people. She says that is indicative of the true level of dedication the global market force (ie. the money) has shown and is willing to show to the "confident consumer" for their troubles.

[ 09-20-2001: Message edited by: tero ]