Gamey tactic? - your opinions please

[Mr. Hankey]

I'm in agreement with the majority here. Not gamey. The setup in a defend fight is the most critical of any CM battle type. The trick is to build a fluid defense. Fluidity is the only other option as a defense in depth is nearly impossble with the "probe" setup box. In attacks and assualts against a competent opponent, the most you can hope for is to win on time by holding him up as much as possible, as eventually you WILL be crushed. As was stated before, if you don't have a "swing" platoon to move into position as required to bolster weak positions, then basically you're just screwed. End of story.

He came up the side. So what? How else was he gonna get at your flank on a tiny map? Personally, I hate small maps for that very reason - lack of tactical flexability- but what can you do?

I always expect my flank to be hit when I'm defending, so I try to give a bit of extra strength toward either or both sides, depending on terrain and the men I have to work with. Hopefully, I can set it up so that I have some mobility in case of a frontal assault.

I'm defending in a similar game right now. My opponent decided that he wanted to come at my right flank, where a rather large opjective flag lay. I got a visual on at least 4 platoons in some scattered trees coming at that area right on the map edge. I rather expected this, so I had a 120mm spotter with LOS on a rather large open area that he had to cross in the snow. Acutally I'd hoped for it as it might prove a chance to run some of his guys off the map.

He started coming but the timing was a little off and a spotting round tipped him off just as the turn ended. I decided to just leave the arty running, because at that point, my opponent could have just pulled all his forces back and I would have wasted my precious cargo.

As it happened, he did pull back half of the force, but the other half went on to the objective on the flank and received a warm 120mm welcome on open ground. I also threw in some 81mm for seasoning. God, it was beautiful .

So far, I haven't heard a peep out of that flank in 10 turns.

[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Mr. Hankey ]

[Juju]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scooter:

Now that he has your attention well fixed onto one direction, what does he have coming from the other direction to attack your new rear?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing at all... They're ALL coming from the same side.

[Sledge59]

Another opinion:

-Small maps are gamey... like shooting fish in a barrel.

-Large map QB defence is gamey... the VLs are spread much wider.

-Probably the least gamey QB defence would be one in which you abandon at least one flag in the setup phase on a large map.

-The only thing more gamey than CMBO is: EVERY OTHER GAME EVER MADE

[chrisl]

I'm playing a somewhat larger battle against MkIV on a large map in moderate fog (~180 m visibility) and I'm attacking him from behind. He's also doing a fine job of adjusting forces to meet the attack, and has shifted his defense effectively, putting a well organized infantry and armor force in my path.

He did at one point mention that attacking from more than three directions at once might qualify as gamey. So far I'm only attacking from three directions.

You have to have a fluid defense, or the attack will roll over you-- you start out with fewer points than the attacker, and the attacker gets to choose when and where to apply a force concentration. You have to be able to adjust the defense to provide a defense in depth along any path.

[Juju]

Okay, okay, I get it alright. So it's not gamey.

I do wish you'd all stop telling me how to defend, cos I actually do know. ( ). It's actually the first defensive battle I've lost in ages, come to think of it.

Ah, well, back to the ole drawing board I guess.

Again, thanks all for your input.

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Nothing at all... They're ALL coming from the same side. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like you have the rest of the field to yourself.

Time to move your un-engaged defenders forward, swing around and back door your opponent.

There's only one time when I think edge hugging is Kosher: When that is the only way to get to the side of a enemy unit that is close to the edge or when the best cover is obviously at the edge.

To move your vehicles and troops along the very edge because you know you instantly have a protected side might fly in a ladder game, where winning is the only thing, but doing it in a friendly game I think goes against the spirit of honest play in wargames.

If there are any defensive lessons to be learned here is to set your defense in layers of differing depths from the front line, this way a flanking opponent always has a wide front ahead of him no matter what angle he comes from.

That and always leave a sharpshooter or AT team well ahead to spot flankers, and if edge huggers to hopefully drive them off the map with mortar fire.

Gyrene

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He did at one point mention that attacking from more than three directions at once might qualify as gamey. So far I'm only attacking from three directions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that is not gamey at all. It's called envelopment, and kudos to you if you pull it off.

Gyrene

[Panzer Leader]

I usually set up mines where I think a flanking group is going to turn into the attack (i.e. leave the edge to finally hit me) I also like to have some guns ambushing this point (the mines) and then like to watch as the tanks burst into flame and the soldiers scurry this way and that.

Not giving advice to ya, Juju, just reflecting...

[Juju]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene:

To move your vehicles and troops along the very edge because you know you instantly have a protected side might fly in a ladder game, where winning is the only thing, but doing it in a friendly game I think goes against the spirit of honest play in wargames.

Gyrene<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. That could be my problem. For me a ladder game is a friendly game. All my games are ladder games and friendly games. So I, personally, don't see the difference. But of course it need not be so for everyone.

[JasonC]

Breaking through on one narrow axis to come at the defense from another angle is fine. And a good defense will be able to adapt to it. But hugging the map edge with the entire force is gamey. It exploits an unrealistic bottomless pit of tartarus to secure half of the intruders problem.

There is, incidentally, an in-game "solution" to this problem, though not a foolproof one. Drop arty on that map edge. Units that break very close to an edge often run off the map. Another possibility at set-up is to put a few AP mines along the edges, particularly if they have covered terrain for a long "lane" of approach.

A turning movement that uses 1/3rd of the map is one thing, a column along the edge of "the pit" is something else again.

[WWB]

There is another response: Abuse the opponent's now-open flank. Remeber that he has to denude the rest of the map to make such a movement, which you should repond to with a nasty little counterattack that spears his column as it is stretched along the map edge.

WWB

[lcm1947]

I would agree - not gamey. Sorry, I would do the same.

[Franko]

Just my 2 cents..

Unless the historical situation specifically dictates otherwise, all maps should be large enough to allow this sort of flanking maneuver, and force the defender to make choices about what to defend. This way, you don't have the "run down the edge" problem..you can be flanked "normally" as it were. Too often, scenarios have TOO many units on to small of a map.

F.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Making a 90 degree turn is not an easy operation but thats your only option now.

Or you could show your disatisfaction and attack with everything you have on the map and die in true Samurai style.

[Stormhouse]

Here is a gamy tactic, I played against some who will remain nameless and he used his anti tank teams for scouting.

It was a attack defend game, i was defending. So when his anti tank teams would get close to my squads, my squads would open fire on one stupid anti tank team and then his arty would come falling down on my head.

Since the squads just gave out there positions.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stormhouse:

Here is a gamy tactic, I played against some who will remain nameless and he used his anti tank teams for scouting.

It was a attack defend game, i was defending. So when his anti tank teams would get close to my squads, my squads would open fire on one stupid anti tank team and then his arty would come falling down on my head.

Since the squads just gave out there positions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um I could be wrong, but I thought anti-tank teams make GREAT cheap scouts.

They run fast and Can kill armour if you guess right and get lucky.

I'm not sure that using AT teams as scouts is really "Gamey" what loophole in the game engine are you exploiting by scouting with AT teams?

(I could be REALLY wrong on this one, but I have done this before, not with the intention of drawing fire, but I have sent AT teams to scout, they are not hindered by ANY hard coded spotting penalties that I know of.)

-tom w

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juju:

Hehe, not Marlow, Enoch.

Anyway, thanks for your input all. guess I'll have to figure this one out by myself.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only thing to figure out is that you are getting your arse handed to you in a paper bag because you didn't prepare a successful defense. Face it. I have lost defenses, not many mind you, and the main reason is because the attacker does not attack where I expected him to. It's just that simple. Next time try and prepare for a flank attack or deploy in such a way that rolling up the flank has a very limited effect.

Jeff

[Talenn]

Hmm, generally that's what I figure that Mines and whatnot are for...to channel the enemy and make him go where you want him to go.

I will usually buy a few minefields to place along the edges of the map (and a small map makes it easy). Also, a TRP or two targeted in the 'dead spots' can also make mincemeat of people who are 'stacking up' on a board edge.

Combine the Arty with the above mentioned tendancy of troops to rout of the side of the board and you have a quick way to lose a LARGE portion of your attack force.

[tenfive2]

So it seems to me a feint along the edge with split squads and a vehicle or two, with the main force waiting until the defender shifts to this attack... naw, too gamey.

[Panzer Leader]

((Sigh)) A feint attack along the extreme flank is not gamey for the exact same reason an actual attack is not gamey: to wit, the defenders responsibility is to prepare against any eventuality, and a FEINT is about as militarily sound as anything. In fact, that's a GREAT idea, I hope Shandorf stopped reading this!

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

Um I could be wrong, but I thought anti-tank teams make GREAT cheap scouts.

They run fast and Can kill armour if you guess right and get lucky.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im with Tom on this. CM doesn't really have a leg "scout" unit. It was common practice in WWII to have a 1 or 2 man scout team out in front of every platoon or company (Read Donald Burgett's books for some references).

The only way to simulate the 1 or 2 man scout is with a sniper or an AT team. Sometimes I like to have a half-squad up front to have some firepower. Sometimes I take an extra platoon leader from the Heavy weapons platoon and use him as a scout.

[Jarmo]

Besides, scouts are the reason why a good defender moves a couple of half squads forward as an anti-recon element. Let the enemy drop his arty barrage on your half squad. Your half squad that you withdrew after it killed the AT team.

Hell it's easy to give good advice afterwards.

Wish I was this smart during my games...

[Gen-x87H]

I am still confused on how hugging the edges of the map is really gamey. In most other games I can see how it would work but in this game if you have a defense that can move andbody moving troops in a stright single file line along an edge can be wiped clean real easy.

Grab some 81s and drop them almost on them but just a little behind the moving line to impede thier retreat. Then open up with a MG and a couple of squads. They are stuck and will probably panic. If you have any kind of guns in the area shoot into thier flimsy line for even more effectiveness.

Anybody moving a few units in a perfect orderly line is a fool just waiting to be slaughtered.

As for this being gamey? I really do not know how he moved his troops. But a 800X800 map does not allow for much movement. It sounds like he found your weak spot and is exploiting it hard core. That poor MG crew and shrek didnt have a chance. I have never found a single MG crew to be much of anything against more than 1 squad. They can however be very deadly if you place a single squad or 2 squads right next to them. And of course more than 1 MG in a close proximity can also be deadly.

I suggest next time making sure those troops have cover and make sure you have a ready reserve waiting to move and stop a breach.

Using layers also helps alot. make a thin line of defense that can just harass them enough and kill enough guys that when they hit your main line of D the attacker is going WTF? Theyll be worn down while you bring a good amount of fire power on them.

Speaking of gamey. What do you guys think of people who on the last turn run thier armored vehicles into the flag just so you dont get it? Most of the time they are lost but keeps you from getting a minor victory?

Gen

[Mannheim Tanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

Just plain good tactics.

The defender should be able to readjust his positions to meet the attacker from the new angle. If done properly and quickly the attacker has won nothing but only lost time.

I know this is not necessarily easy.

Flanking attacks are of the big reasons to keep a mobile reserve. It can buy the time you need for adjustments.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not really good "tactics" but rather taking good advantage of the map edge. In other words, it's a great "gamey" use of the tools given to him - and that's fine if he didn't have any agreement in place before the game to avoid this.

Flanking movements are one thing, but clustering all of your troops in a small bunch while hiding up against the map edge is another. IRL the attacker would be at risk from being hit from the area just off of the map edge. Is it a good tactic in CM? Sometimes, yes. Is it realistic? Not really...

All this said, it does sound like your defense was inflexible. A flexible defense would have smashed this gamey assault - map edge creeps are easy to smash if you can pivot and nail them with MG and arty fire. HEhe...you might even scare some of them off of the edge of the map (as I once did to an opponent that tried this move).

[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Mannheim Tanker ]

[Mannheim Tanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Rock:

Using larger maps is one solution, but it raises other problems. Make the map big enough and you have to consider supporting forces on the flank - forces which don't appear in a game like CM.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I've found large maps to be the perfect solution. You don't have to worry about supporting forces or other enemy forces on your flanks per se, but you do need to be conscious of flank security, much as you do in the real world. On a large map, an opponent can easily sneak a few units around your flank if you're not careful. At the same time, a map-edge-creep on a large map will usually force the attacker to go way out of his way if he wants to use this tactic, and therefore eat up a lot more time (and possibly fatigue his men).