sightreader Posted November 11, 2001 Share Posted November 11, 2001 Well, I'm most pleased to report that after over twenty all-tank battles on the diagonal board, we have yet to encounter a single case of edge hugging (edge hugging is where a tank will drive along the edge of the board to avoid being flanked). It's still possible, but it's so hard to execute that the terrain ends up dominating strategy instead (as it should). How have experiments gone with non-armor units? FYI, to make a diagonal board, just set the start zones to be opposite corners of a square board so you're fighting across a diamond shape. Avoid maps with unapproachable high ground in the start zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 Congratulations on attaining your goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 I did this a year ago with my Buron II scenario... Would be nice if more scenario designers took the same approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 That's the beauty of using third party battle maps, you can set them up any way you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sightreader Posted November 12, 2001 Author Share Posted November 12, 2001 Thank you all for the congratulations. Last I recall, there was some concern that putting a start zone in the corner made forces prone to artillery bombardment. I suppose all that depends on how large the battle is. I haven't tried this with infantry or other stuff, just tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 I think this is a fantastic idea. It should also make actual flanking moves possible, because the effective width of the map widdens 41% at the center-line. As for the concern about early artillery, just allow a decent amount of room near the corners, like the corner 6 "large squares" (equals 100x100m sections) in the map editor. (a 3-2-1 "tetris block", if you get me). That should be wide enough to prevent early arty from going to town too much, since infantry can be spread over ~400-500 yards by the end of a minute of two. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 I know I'm excited about this little development. How about some scenarios utilizing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sightreader Posted November 12, 2001 Author Share Posted November 12, 2001 Yes, I can vouch personally that flanking is very prevalent in a diagonal scenario. The first guy to get to cover around the left or right corners of the diamond gets flanking rights. In quantity vs quality tank battles, the Tigers race to get lines of sight that go all the way across the board so they can shoot down Shermans running sideways to flank. If they can't kill enough Shermans this way, then the Shermans usually have little difficulty closing in on the Tigers from all directions. From then on it's a matter of timing: make sure all the Shermans pop up at the same time and you'll get that rear shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 Suggest this excellent idea be brought to the attention of BTS for use in future developments of CM. Really need to make the scenerio building peeps aware of this method too. Well done. Fenris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 > How about some scenarios utilizing it? You could try my RockyRoad scenario. It uses this diagonal approach by accident, not because it was my intention to prevent edge hugging. http://www.geocities.com/slm201slm/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 Amazing such a simple inovation took so long to realize... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 I wish this were possible for QBs (hint, hint). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sightreader: Last I recall, there was some concern that putting a start zone in the corner made forces prone to artillery bombardment. <hr></blockquote> Jason made one good suggestion for avoiding this. Another option is to provide FO's as reinforcements two or three turns into the game - that way units have time to get out of the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 Well, should anyone want to test a neat diagonal scenario, post here and I will start pairing off playtesters. The scenario is a US armored advance against what becomes a heavily armored german force. It is not purely diagonal, but it is close in spirit. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 nm [ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Captain Wacky ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voidhawk Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> > How about some scenarios utilizing it? <hr></blockquote> Doesn't the game CD's "The Sunken Lane" use a diagonal map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sightreader Posted November 12, 2001 Author Share Posted November 12, 2001 I think I emailed the Combat Mission people once about setting up more scenarios like this, but never got a reply or acknowledgement. Maybe I didn't do it right? Certainly I don't claim to be the first to set up a map diagonally. I may be one of the first to recognize its potential for solving the edge hugging problem, but I don't know that for sure either. All I can say is I came up with the idea independently, and for that I am happy and have high hopes that the idea will improve everyone's experience. Unfortunately, I have back problems and can't play scenarios that last more than 20 minutes, so I haven't tested it on anything other than small tank battles. I was curious if any of you guys out there with healthy backs might have tried it with a wider variety of units...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sightreader Posted November 12, 2001 Author Share Posted November 12, 2001 Oh yeah, one more thing: what's the best way to make Scenario folks aware of this? I don't want to cross post this to the Scenario Talk forum: I did that before and learned that cross posting is an Evil Thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted November 12, 2001 Share Posted November 12, 2001 Many are aware of it, and it has been well used. For example, many of the Der Kessel Byte Battles are on a slant, mainly to maximize space for combat. Generally, is is one of those things I use when it is appropriate. Also note that a well designed map can eliminate edge hugging without resorting to other tricks. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sightreader: Oh yeah, one more thing: what's the best way to make Scenario folks aware of this? I don't want to cross post this to the Scenario Talk forum: I did that before and learned that cross posting is an Evil Thing...<hr></blockquote> Scenario people know about it. What I am wondering is how you would implement this for large battles. If you have more then a company of men on the map its hard not to have some units near the edge of the map. I very much like the idea, but for large or huge battles its not very useful. Most of those maps are already very big. For you idea we would have to use even bigger maps. Also this can't be done in Operations...not that may people play or make them, anyway. [ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Another choice would be to apply undriveable terrain near the edge with an open plateau above it. This would also assist in keeping units away from the edges or at least observable when they are doing it. I have seen a few maps like you describe, and besides the battles at Der Kessel I haven't much liked them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sightreader Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 I'm not sure I fully understand the big battle problem: is it that you can't cram that many guys into a corner, or that the corner would have to be so large that the map would become enormous? You could enlarge your start zones by making them triangular rather than diamond shaped, but I assume that's not the issue... Definitely you can fiddle with terrain to prevent edge hugging. For a guy to does a lot of Auto Generate, that's a pain, but for a scenario designer, it's reasonable. The ideal map, of course, would be circular, but for a game that intrinsically does things in square grids that's sorta unnatural for things like Auto Generate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 A truly good map would have no edges at all. Well you hit it on the head, you would need a huge map. Oh I could have 6 Shermans and a Battalion of men in a corner yes. But here are the problems: As I have said you would need a huge map. Changing the setup areas size wouldn't change that at all. I agree with the principle of th idea, but can it be use effectively in CM? You said you tested small battles (20 turns did you say). From the number of scenarios I have played (must be at least 1000 by now) not very many are that long. In the time frame all the AI has time to do is attack head on. Now if you didn't play the AI you wouldn't have the problem. I know some people to edge hugging, but the shape of the map will not really change this. Thats all for now. Rob [ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sightreader Posted November 14, 2001 Author Share Posted November 14, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Panzerman: Changing the setup areas size wouldn't change that at all. I agree with the principle of th idea, but can it be use effectively in CM? You <hr></blockquote> I was wondering if edge hugging is even much of an issue with a large battle and a wide front. Of the large number of units arrayed, it would seem that only a small percentage could take advantage of it. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> said you tested small battles (20 turns did you say). From the number of scenarios I have played (must be at least 1000 by now) not very many are that long. In the time frame all the AI has time to do is attack head on. Now if you didn't play <hr></blockquote> Actually, I meant 20 minutes, not 20 turns. Most of the games were over in less than 10 turns. However, without infantry, there is nothing for tanks zipping around to be careful of, so they can cross the map in about 3 turns. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr> the AI you wouldn't have the problem. I know some people to edge hugging, but the shape of the map will not really change this. Thats all for now. Rob [ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ][/QB]<hr></blockquote> Actually, this was the principal target of the diagonal map: to prevent edge hugging by humans without forcing them to play irrationally. How do humans continue to use edge hugging on a diagonal map? I think it's a possibility, but in the diagonal tank games I've played it's so difficult to set up that one prefers to exploit terrain instead. Is it likely to be more prevalent with infantry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 interesting thread has anyone posted a list of scenario's they know if that use the diagonal map with set up zones in the corners? I would be interested. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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