Elepahnt use on the EF questions

[Mattias]

Kwazy

I think Mike is referring to the extra armour shield “clamped” to the barrel, that protected the rounded main gun shield.

The Ferdinand was delivered without it, but it was issued shortly afterward and sent out as a field kit.

Standard practice upon deliver was to mount the shield with the bolts holding it in place facing inwards, towards the superstructure.

For some reason it was found more effective to mount them “back to front”, with the seam of bolts on the outside, facing away from the Superstructure. This is the way it was fitted to the Elefants.

So, if the model is detailed enough to actually show the mounting clearly this is another feature that visually distinguishes the Elefant from the Ferdinand..

It is not a dead give away since the shield is reversed on some Ferdinands but it does denote a change in standard practice.

M.

[Stalin's Organ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler:

BTS,

Also, please come up with procedures allowing sustained fire for water cooled MGs, including the Russian Maxim which was frequently used in multiple mounts for AA

work. I firmly believe this area needs work and has for some time, particularly since Ian Hogg cites a four gun Vickers group during WWI denying all movement through an area for 48 hours, with only a handful of stoppages. The guns fired continuously, while being steadily replenished with ammo and water. I feel that the current modeling of water cooled MGs takes much of the oomph out of the Allied MG arsenal.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe on defence, but then only if there's a river and an ammo dump handy!!

[Kwazydog]

Ahh, I see....thanks guys, Ill look into it. All of the shots I have here seem to show the shield facing outwards, so if anyone has a shot of it the other way around, please feel free to post it or email it to me

Dan

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

If it had a no bow mg, and a six man crew, were there two loaders? a full time mechanic or electrician?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, two loaders.

The "strange" mechanism with electric motors for driving and a fuel engine driving an electric generator is an often used concept in railway locomotives. If you have to deliver a lot of power to axis in narrow room, the (enourmous) power losses of such a mechanism are more than equaled out by the simpler and more direct force distribution (correct english term?), in terms of overall efficiency, in reliability and in maintainance requirements. High-force mechanisms bridging a long way (engine to wheels) are a nightmare, the burdend parts must be exchanged often, especially if you can't watch after them twice a day. And they take a lot of power for themself, although they look ridig/stiff, they really aren't under the conditions given. It is as if your bicycle had treadles make from stiffer rubber.

So the solution with radically shortend force distribution (once from engine to generator and then from electric motor to axle) may be an overall advantage, although power losses from converting energy several times are big.

Problem is that the electric installation bured easily in the Ferdinand. While the mechanism is quite reliable in locomotives, a locomotive has a much more equal power usage curve and much better cooling from continuous moving through air. The simpler and direct mechanisms also have the

burdened parts placed on a much wider area, whereas the diesel-electric mechanism concentrates them in fewer places, no good for heat handling. Also a locomotive has one or two electric motors per axle, the Ferdinand had only two overall.

I apologize for some bad english, first time I gave a mechanical description in english.

Had a nightmare I was playing swamp and his Ferdinand peeked over the hill...

[ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Username]

Did the origional porshe tigers (with turrets and 88L56) see action? I would imagine they were a fewbuilt.

[Marlow]

OK, this looks like a good place for this question. I just finished reading the section of MacDonald's A Time for Trumpets, that discusses a fight on the southern shoulder of the Bulge. On Dec. 22, a force from Combat Command B of the 4th Armored Division is driving to relieve Bastogne, and encounters elements of the 5th Parachute Division at a town called Chaumont. After driving the parachutists out of the town, the Germans counter attack supported by "ten German assault guns and what the Americans took to be five Tiger tanks." The book then goes on to describe what those "Tigers" were:

"That morning at headquarters of the 26th Volksgrenadier Division near Bastogne, five Ferdinand tank destroyers, which have long-barreled 88mm. Guns mounted on a Tiger chassis, had arrived. They were part of the 653d Heavy Panzerjager Battalion, which had recently come from Italy and was scheduled for commitment in Alsace; but somehow those five Ferdinands had been diverted to the Ardennes"

In contrast, Achtung Panzer states that: " In Autumn of 1944, all existing Elephants were grouped into newly created unit - schwere Heeres Panzerjager Kompanie 614, sPzJagAbt 653 was re-equipped with Jagdtigers."

So, is there any credence to MacDonald's version where Elefants were used at the Bulge? I found a couple of inaccuracies in his book, but nothing really significant, but then again, I'm not an expert.

In any event, it appears that either five elefants or jagdtigers say action at Chaumont. Has anybody done a battle for this action?

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Sure, but the Soviets will get that nasty piece of work known as the ISU-122 or ISU-152. And since they built about FOUR THOUSAND of these they aren't going to be too hard to find on the battlefield. Thankfully for the German player, even though the ISU-152 could whack even a King Tiger into next year they could only fire about 1.5 rounds per minute Even the Elephant could withdraw faster than that

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From Onwar.com..

*Total ISU-122, ISU-122S and ISU-152 production is claimed to be 4075 by June 1945 by Zaloga. The estimate provided here assumes 50% of the total production was ISU-152.

Did they build more assault guns than JS2?

Also from Onwar.com..3475**

**This is an estimate of IS-2 Model 1944 production during the noted production period. Production continued after this period. Higher estimates seem to include IS-1 and early IS-2 production.

Anyway, the armor on the Soviet assault guns was more stand-offish than face to face. So they had neither the armor or the rate of fire to duke it out with the big cats.

German L48s had to treat them with a little bit of respect and circumvention.

It will be interesting to see if the turret of the JS2 is modeled like the panthers. It was only 90mm and rounded.

Lewis

[Matthew_Ridgeway]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Marlow Said: So, is there any credence to MacDonald's version where Elefants were used at the Bulge? I found a couple of inaccuracies in his book, but nothing really significant, but then again, I'm not an expert.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ninety total Ferdinands\Elephants\Panzer Jager Tiger (P) were produced and completed by May of 1943 and distributed to the 653rd and 654th PanzerJager Battalions. That was it for Ferdinands production for the whole war. Kursk took a heavy toll on the ninety. Looks like 40 odd Pz Jag Tiger (P) were upgraded with an MG mounts sometime after Kursk and these were condensed into the 653rd Battalion and the 614th Panzer Jager Kompanie. Both these units and the remnants of the original Panzer Jager Tiger (P)’s left Russia and went to Italy and served late 43 through 44.

There was no official German Unit Documentation from the 653rd indicating that any Panzer Jager Tiger (P)’s were still present with the 653rd in December of 1944, any residual Panzer Jager Tiger (P)’s still operational in late 1944 probably remained in Italy. Probably with the 614th Panzer Jager Kompanie. The whole Ferdinands in the Ardennes seems to stem from a report from the Divisional Commander of the 26th Volksgrenadier.

Just elaborate on this interesting quote provided by Marlow above Charles Macdonald’s “A Time for Trumpets” here is the quote that Joe is referencing to: “That morning at HQ of the 26th Volksgrenadier Division near Bastogne, five Ferdinand tank destroyers, which had long-barreled 88mm guns mounted on Tiger chassis, had arrived. They were part of the 653rd Heavy Panzer Jager Battalion, which had recently come from Italy and was scheduled for commitment in Alsace: but somehow those five Ferdinands had been diverted to the Ardennes. The division commander, Colonel Kokott, cared not where they came from nor how they got there, for they seemed heaven sent to prevent the American drive from the south from cutting into the rear of his division at Bastogne (pg 521, A Time for Trumpets).

I did find this from Dan Parker’s Battle of the Bulge, Hitler’s Ardennes Offensive, 1944-1945 page 240 this may explain Colonel Kokott’s Ferdinands. The last entry (The Section in Parker’s book is called “Myth and Mystery”

”It is perhaps useful to lay to rest some of the popular myths in the historical literature concerning German Tigers in the Ardennes battle.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>· There were no Tigers in the battle at Krinkelt. The only armored vehicles used there were Jagdpanzer IVs, Panthers and assault guns from the 12SS Panzer and 3rd Panzer Grenadier Divisions.

· There were no Tigers with the 2nd Panzer Division at the fight north of Bastogne at Noville. These were a combination of assault guns and Panthers.

· The 506th Heavy Panzer Battalion did not fight at Andler on the morning of December 17th. These -were likely assault guns from the 244th Sturmgeschtttz Brigade attached to the 18th Volksgrenadier Division.

· We do not know if the tanks described as breaking the defense at St. Vith were Tigers from the 506th Panzer Battalion. However, it is possible since the advance party of the battalion was re-ported to IISS Panzerkorps as reaching the front on December 17th.

· It is likely that the Tigers (sic. Ferdinands) described by Kokott of the 26th Volksgrenadier Division south of Bastogne on December 24th were Jagdpanthers from the Heavy Panzerjager Battalion 559 attached to the Panzer Lehr Division.”

Maybe two Jagdtigers did see combat in the Bulge.

Found this in: Danny S. Parker’s “Battle of the Bulge”, Hitler’s Ardennes Offensive, 1944-1945. Combined Publishing, copyright 1991, pages 239-240.

“Panzerjager Battalion 653: This was the first German panzer formation with the huge 128mm Jagd-tiger tank destroyers. The gun was exceedingly powerful and at 77 tons, the armor was extremely thick. Hitler expected these behemoths to be invulnerable. Under command of Maj. Gillenberger, the formation had nine of the juggernauts on December 17th and was in the process of expansion as production of tank hunters rolled off the assembly line at Nibelungenwerke. The battalion was first assigned to the LVHI Panzerkorps on December 7th, then to the Panzer Lehr Division by December 14th. For the planned employment, the LVIII Panzerkorps had been given a section of special bridging equipment to pass the monsters over the Our River.

However, Hitler had one of his last minute brainwaves and asked that the Jagdtigers go to the Sixth Panzer Armee to block American reinforcements from moving south along the Eupen - Monschau road. In this way, he believed that the huge tank destroyers might be pivotal in stopping the expected American reaction from the north. However, the spreading chaos of the Reichsbahn foiled everyone’s plans. When the offensive opened, the Jagdtigers were still in rail transport to Blankenheim.

Days after the offensive began; the American reinforcements were streaming into the German attack zone from the north. Hitler insisted on finding out what had become of s. Panzerjager Battalion 653. “What about the Jagdtigers?” he demanded. General Herbert Buchs, a staff officer at OKW, had bad news for the Fuhrer. “A check has been made,” he began, “and the trains bringing the battalion forward have been blocked by air attack on the rail lines.” The battalion had never even crossed the Rhine! Hitler was out-raged. “They must be mad!” he cried. “If the enemy attacks our defense with ten or twelve heavy tanks, there’s enough streaming to bring the house down; but when we have 24 of the heaviest tanks in the world, they aren’t even used!”

A message to OB West on December 29th shows that two of the tank destroyers had unloaded and were now headed to the Sixth Panzer Armee front. One of these appears to have been knocked out west of St. Vith in Maldingen and then sketched by a teenage Belgian civilian in 1945. The rest of the battalion, now up to a strength of 26, had new marching orders and had been shunted south to Operation Nordwind. Even the movement to Piramasens had been disrupted, however. “In view of the circum-stances,” OB West concluded, “a better march performance cannot be expected.”

A week later, however, the Jagdtigers rumbled into battle on a plain near Rimling, France. In the action that followed, the monsters were repulsed by the 90mm guns of the U.S. 776th Tank Destroyer Battalion. At least one was destroyed, giving lie to Hitler’s myth of their invincibility.”

[Thomm]

Could anyone point out to me a (historical?) scenario with Jagdtigers? I have never encountered them so far (having played almost all original scenarios).

Thanks in advance,

Thomm

[PzKpfw 1]

Did anyone mention the bow MG added after Zitadelle?.

Regards, John Waters

[PzKpfw 1]

Concerning the ISU-122 & ISU-152, production by year, the total was:

ISU-122:

1944 - 1600

1945 - 800

Total ISU-122 production = 2400.

ISU-152:

1943 - 35

1944 - 900

1945 - 400

Total ISU-152 production = 1335.

Total combined ISU-122 & ISU-152 Production = 3735 AFV's.

Regards, John Waters

[Måkjager]

Hi Steve..well i have read and looked through through the “Combat History of Schwere Panzerjäger Abteilung 653” and i have not seen any evidence of the M.G modification that you mentioned. Same goes for reports of using the loose MG34 through the barrel of the main weapon.

But that is not to discount that it might have been so....maybe the modifications might have been introduced into the 654th sPzjg Abt....we wont know for sure until the History of that unit is printed in the follow up book ( by the way JJF publications have just announced a pre publishing price for that book..so it should be along in a few months time).

Kwazy , here are some photos to help you in regard to the gun shield.

When the Ferdinand was issued from the Nibelungen Werks at the start of May 1943 to the 654th Abt stationed in Rouen , France they had no gun shield fitted as seen in photo 1.

The authorities were concerned about possible penetration through the ball mounted gun mantle and ordered tests for a shield to be fitted.

Photo 2 shows these tests underway at Putlos , on the Baltic coast at the start of May 1943.

There was a 1cm gap between the ball mount and the frontal/mantle plate which could allow penetration ...in fact combat reports state that casualties were caused by shrapnel invading the interior through this gap.

Upon successful conclusion of these test , shield kits were issued to the maintence companies for retro fitting.hotos 3 and 4 show the shield fitted with the smooth part facing forward.

Photo 5 shows the field / rebuilt modifacation which appeared on both the Ferdinand and Elefant.

There are also cases of the vehicles going into action with no shield due to shortage of spare parts.

These shields when initially fitted had a smooth front surface with 2 small joins either side of the barrel.The rearward facing part of the shield was much more bulky , with the 4 retaining bolts(2 either side ) clearly evident.

For its combat debut the Ferdinand had the smooth outer shield facing forward.This was the case from the initial fitting through combat actions until the Ferdinands underwent some extended maintence at the Dnepropetrovsk ‘K-Werks’ in September 1943.

When the Ferdinands of the 653rd were withdrawn from Jan-March 1944 for an extensive overhaul and modification , the shields were put back on as per the previous field practice..ie bolts facing forward as for some reason this way was found to be more effective.

They received the coating of Zimmerit , an Maybach HL -120 engine, radio operator hull mg ,improved grating, commanders cupola and numerous others improvements.( As a side note..there were 4 Ferdinands issued with a modified 2 piece rear hatch)

On the 31st March the 653Abt had on strength 30 Ferdinands out of a authorised 31.

On the1st May , Hitler issued an order that all references to the “Ferdinand” be replaced in official records with the new designation of “Elefant”.

The 2nd and 3rd Komp of the 653rd now equipped with the Elefant were in action on the southern Russian front from April till October 1944. Suffering losses over that period the remaining vehicles were consolidated into the 2 Komp which was renamed the 614th Army sPzJg Komp ( Elefant)...the 3rd Komp was returned to the Reich for training on the Jagdtiger.

The last 2 Elefants of the Komp 614 were lost in action in inner city Berlin fighting Polish and Soviets forces around the Karl-August -Platz and the Trinity Church.

More info if needed

Regards

Måkjager

[ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: Måkjager ]

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias:

Steve,

For the period between the 5th of July to the 5th of November 1943 the 656 s.Pz.Jg.Rgt. incured the following losses on the Soviet forces:

582 Tanks

344 AT guns

133 Guns

103 At Rifles

3 Aircraft

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For some reason, I'm particularly struck by the large number of AT rifles knocked out by the Ferd.

[Battlefront.com]

Måkjager,

Thanks for the additional information. I think the German fears about damage to the gun mount were justified. There is a picture of an abandoned Elephant in Chamberlain & Doyle's "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII" that shows a clear hit to this added on shield. It appears to have enabled the shot to be deflected into the engine compartment (which is probably why it fell into Allied hands). It is possible that had the shield not been there more damage (and crew loss) might have been the result.

Steve

[Måkjager]

Here is some more info on the sPzJg Regt 656 July 1943.

Composed of the following units

I /Abt (653)

HQ x2 Ferdinand

1st Komp 3 Plt sx 4 Ferdinands

HQ x2 Ferdinand

2nd Komp 3 Plts x 4 Ferdinands

HQ x2 Ferdinand

3rd Komp 3 Plts x 5 Ferdinands

Total Ferdinands 653rd Abt 45

II/ Abt (654)

Abt HQ x3 Ferdinands

HQ x2 Ferdinand

1st Komp 3 Plt sx 4 Ferdinands

HQ x2 Ferdinand

2nd Komp 3 Plts x 4 Ferdinands

HQ x2 Ferdinand

3rd Komp 3 Plts x 4 Ferdinands

Total Ferdinands 654th Abt 45

III/Abt (216) Brummbär

Abt HQ x3 Brummbär

Komp 1 , 2, 3 with the following

HQx2 Brummbär

Komp

3 Plts x 4 Brummbär

Total Brummbär 45

Also attached for the Kursk battle were 72 B IV radio controlled

demolition tanks , 10 Stug III , 10 Pz III L/42 , 7 Pz III L/60,

3 Pz III N 7.5cm and 3 Pz II.

From the period 5th -27th July the 653rd knocked out 320

Soviet tanks for the total loss of 13 Ferdinands in the following units.

1st Komp 6 vehicles (Guns 111, 112,113,122,132,134)

2nd Komp 1 vehicle ( Gun 232 )

3rd Komp 4 vehicles ( Guns 311, 323, 331, 333 )

2 vehicles from the reserve.

Most of these vehicles were lost due to mine damage

( not recoverable-self destructed) , Soviet flame thrower/Molotov cocktail

, Artillery hits near/ on the engines through the grates which caused fire to break out.

Crews placed protective coverings over the gratings to

minimise the effects on the engine ( I am not sure weather this

was tarpaulins or thin sheet metal..have to look at the photos again.)

One vehicle was penetrated by a Soviet T-34 from 400m

( the vehicle in question was surrounded by 7 T-34s at the time)

The round entered near the ventilation motor housing on the

side of the hull , no damage.

Another vehicle dropped out when hit in the engine

compartment by a Pz III , which had taken a direct hit and

was violently flung through the air to land on the Ferdinands

engine compartment.

Tracks/Mobility kills ?

According to the initial report anything from 1/3 to 1/2 of

the track joints on most Ferdinands have broken at least

once or twice...A/T fire from Rifles and Guns / near misses

from large Artillery.

Ferdinand situation for the 653rd and 654th sPzJg Abts

(Period 30.6.1943 -30.11.1943)

653rd Abt

Short term Total

Assigned Operational Maint. Loss Loss

30.06.43 44 41 3 0

5-14.07.43 656th sPzJg Regt 19 Total losses

29.07.43

31.07.43 31 13 18

01.08.43 27 38

20.08.43 50 12 38

01.09.43 50 10 40

30.09.43 49 20 29

31.10.43 48 10 38

01.11.43 48 9 39

+3 Recovery Ferdinands

30.11.43 42 7 35

20.11.43 Tank situation in Regt . Jugrenfeld (656)

4 Ferdinands combat ready, 8 in short term maintenance

, 30 long term maintenance , 4 total losses.

654th Abt

Assigned Operational Maint. Loss

30.06.43 44 43 3

5-14.07.43

29.07.43 19 13 6 26

31.07.43 19 13 6

From what i have read the troops thought highly of the Ferdinand ,

its armour protection and hard hitting gun were positive points

The vehicle according to their view point was successful

( with an average kill ratio of 15/1 soviet tanks to Ferdinand losses,

in fact they could not get enough of them. The perception of the Ferdinand

being a disaster at Kursk was partly through Soviet propaganda reels

“ The Tigers are burning” , poor Recovery assets/ lack of spare parts ,

failure of mine fields to be cleared properly by the German Pioneers

who were slaughtered by Soviet Artillery fire, engine prone to damage

through the grates and a lack of a close in defence weapon which allowed

Soviet tank killer teams to approach the near blind Ferdinands who had

been stripped of their Infantry cover.

When used with the proper tactics as stand off mobile AT assets

protected by thick armour and supporting Infantry they were a very

hard to dislodge and could turn the tide against the attacking Soviet forces.

Regards

Måkjager

ps BTS...will you be including the likes of the B IV and Goliath

remote demolition tanks ???

[Kwazydog]

Thanks for the info Måkjager, I hadnt seen any shots of the plate mounted the origional way. I think that is something we should be able to model without too much trouble, too.

Dan

[Jeff Duquette]

Question for Måkjager. This is somewhat off-topic, but along the same lines of Marlow’s interesting question above regarding reports of Ferdinands in the Ardennes.

In Dmitriy Loza’s book “Commanding the Red Army’s Sherman Tanks” Loza refers to a tank battle his unit participated near Veszprem, Hungry in late March of 1945. In Loza’s account of the engagement he indicates his unit knocked out several “Ferdinands”. Was sPzJg Regt 653rd or 654th (or the 614 sPzJg Kompanie 614th) present in this vicinity of the world during the time period Loza is referring to? I don't have Schiffers book covering Panzerjâger regt 653 and 654 and am wondering if the book details unit locations relative to time line of the war.

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

For some reason, I'm particularly struck by the large number of AT rifles knocked out by the Ferd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am kind of wondering about the 3 aircraft. I assume they were on the ground?

[CaSCa]

The Squadron/Signal 'Tiger in Action' publication has an interesting part in it's narrative about the Ferdinand/Elefant. To quote:

"Additionally, a number of Ferdinands were modified with crude platforms mounted at the rear of the vehicle to carry five Panzergrenadiers for protection from Russian infantry attacks."

Unfortunately, there is probably no reason for inclusion in the game because it goes on to say:

"These men suffered very heavy losses and proved unsuccessful in halting further Ferdinand losses"

It does show their level of desperation, however.

[Stalin's Organ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Måkjager:

Another vehicle dropped out when hit in the engine

compartment by a Pz III , which had taken a direct hit and

was violently flung through the air to land on the Ferdinands

engine compartment.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So can we expect to see another penetratoin table for Pz-III's, along with "a" and "t" and "c" and "h" ammo there should be "v" - for vehicle!! lol

[Måkjager]

Here are a few more pix and wee bits of information.

Jeff....In regards to the Soviets knocking out 6 Elefants in Hungary i am doubting those reports from the standpoint of the combat employment of the 653rd Abt.

Looking at the last year of the war the the 1st company with 11 Elefants fought in Italy from Feb-August 1944.The 1st lost 8 Elefants in Italy and when it returned to Vienna in August 1944 it turned over its 3 remaining Elefants to the ~Army Arsenal for repair.

Following the general retreat following Operation Bagration the 2nd and 3rd Komp/653Abt lost 19 of their Elefants out of the 30 they had. ( Mainly due to lack of fuel/ spare parts and self-destruction as the bridges in the area could not support the weight of the Elefants)

The 3rd Komp handed what little remained of their combat strength over to the 2nd Komp at the start of July 1944 and returned to the Reich for training on the Jagdtiger.This brought the 2nd Komp up to 14 Elefants which included vehicles from 3rd Komp / and repaired from the maintance depot.

The now consolidated 2nd Komp( with 14 Elefants ) was renamed the 614th Army Heavy Panzerjäger company on the 15.12.1944 assigned to the 4th Pz Armee stationed in the Kielce area , Poland.

On the 12.1.1945 the Soviet 1st Ukrainian Front attacked out of the Baranov bridgehead,which also coincided with the general offensive of the White Russian Front.

During the following bitter fights all of the Elefants of the 614th were lost through the effects of withdrawal and combat operations.

Reports to the General Inspector of Armoured Forces indicate that there were no Elefants combat ready on the following dates.

30.01.1945

06.02.1945

15.02.1945

20.02.1945

24.02.1945

On the 25.02.1945 there were only 4 Elefants remaining in the 614th Komp , and all were in need of serious repair.

There is also a map on the inside of the book cover which shows the deployment areas of the 653rd/614th and at no time does it show the routes crossing Hungry.

As for the 654th Abt...i do not have the information on that unit as the “Combat History of Schwere Panzerjäger Abteilung 654” has not yet been published by JJF Publishing ( and not Scheiffer )

Photos 1 and 2 show the Ferdinand as delivered to the 653rd around May / June 1943.

The 1st side profile gives a demonstration of the vehicles climbing ability and a clear side view of the shield.

Photo 2 shows the vehicles of the 1stKomp/653 just after unloading at Smiyevka(30km South of Orel).

Photo 3 shows a ferdinand passing by a Bogward B IV demolition tank which has got stuck in a ditch

Photo 4 shows how crews covered the engine gratings to help protect the fragile engine compartment from the effects of shrapnel and fire.

Photo 5 shows a Elefant being returned to Vienna by train.

What is interesting about this photo is that in the book it states that the vehicle took a hit on the frontal armour to the left of the gun by a 152mm howitzer...but if you look closely you can infact see 2 hits!!! the 2nd is just below the 1st.There was no penertration from either strikes,

Further to the incident to the “Flying Pz III” above , there is a photo of the remains of a Pz III with 2 Ferdinands being recovered. The caption states that a Pz III was destroyed by a B IV which carried 350kg of H.E. This vehicle took a hit , exploded , destroyed the Pz III which flew through the air and was impaled on the gun of a Ferdinand!!!!!! Talk about bad luck for the Pz III crew.

The 653rd Abt also had some specialised field modified vehicles in service as well as the experimental Porsche Tiger VK 4501 ( with hydraulic power ....in sercice from May 1944 to July 1499 when it was lost )

The field mods consisted of a Bergepanther with a stationary Pz IV turret , a T-34 with a mounted 20mm Quad Flakweirling , 2 T-34 ammo carriers ....and a Flak Panther !!!!!

This vehicle was a Bergepanther fitted with a quad Flakwierling gun ...unfortunately there are no photos in the book

For the end of the 614th Komp 4 Elefants were in assembly on the 20.04.1945 in the area west of Zehrensdorf in the Wünsdorf area ( HQ for Inspector of Armd Forces)

The 2nd in command of the 614th talks about being in command of the last remaining “Ferdinands/ Elefants” in the Berlin area.

“We were an independent company. We never had the King or Jagdtiger. We only received a 5 turret tank. The crew abandoned the vehicle during the final battle for Zossen trainging area near Berlin. My vehicle was knocked out and i was captured along with Haupt. Ritter”

These last vehicles fought with KG Ritter which had an odd ball collection of vehicles which included 1 Kingtiger, 1 Jagdtiger.4 Panthers, 2 Pz IV lg , 1 Pz III (5cm / L60),1 Nashorn, I Hummel MGK 151( Triple mgs) , 2 Shermans....also non mobile elements consisting of 1 Tiger Porsche with a 8.8cm L/70 gun (?), 1 Steyer 8.8 L / 70 weapon carrier and a P40 (I) ??.

Regards

Måkjager

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Måkjager ]

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Måkjager ]

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Måkjager ]

[Jeff Duquette]

Thanks for the information Makjager. Regarding the Schiffer publishing error I reckon I should have know better than to trust directly copying Steve’s reference to the book

So is the book primarily a pictorial history ala Tigers in Combat II, or is it an honest to goodness written history of Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 653.

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ]

[Username]

This from Achtung Panzer website..

"From August to September of 1943, three of original VK4501(P) tanks (issued to sPzJagAbt 653) and in October of 1943, two retired Ferdinands were converted to Bergepanzer Tiger(P). Hulls were modified and mounted in the rear with a small superstructure (with the components of Panzer IV) and engines were moved to a central location. Bergetiger(P) was equipped with 2ton crane and no other special equipment.The only armament was the 7.92mm MG34 mounted in the superstructure."

"Only one completed Tiger(P) with chassis number 150013 saw combat service as a command tank - Panzerbefehlswagen VI(P) with schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653. It was used by its commander, Hauptmann Grillenberg (turret number 003), on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944."

So there it is. The ultimate rarity vehicle! One costs alot and the next is unobtainable!

So it looks like the origional Porshe turreted Tiger was used on a very limited role in the East. At least three were turned into recovery vehicles.

Lewis

[ 06-02-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

[Måkjager]

Jeff ...its a weighty book with loads of photos. The information contained in it is concise .....as for AAR ...they are scarce( compared to what you get in the Tigers In Combat series/ or Tiger The History of a Legendary Weapon" )

I think some of the war diaries were lost.

But it is a good book , which fills in plenty of holes

Regards

Måkjager

[Jeff Duquette]

danke