Elepahnt use on the EF questions

[Battlefront.com]

Hi all,

I know some of you have the expensive Schiffer book covering Panzerjâgerabteilungen 653 and 654 so here are some questions for you to justify the major expense of the book

1. What was the most common designation during July? Was it the Ferdinand or had Elephant already become the defacto name?

2. What month were these poor excuses for AFVs withdrawn from combat (not necessarily taken out of theater, but when they ceased frontline activity)?

3. Did they ever come back to the Eastern Front after being retrofitted with cupolas and MGs?

We are 99% sure we have the right info for the above, but there are some sources that have conflicting information on all three. The Schiffer book is, in our opinion, THE final word on the subject. But obviously we don't have a copy

Thanks,

Steve

[Måkjager]

Yipeeee...here it comes according to "THE BOOK "

May 1943 Sdkfz 184 "Ferdinand issued to 653rd schwerePanzerjager Abt.

July 1943 sPzJg 653 and 654 combat ready for Kursk

In combat till December 1943 , vehicles withdrawn to St Valentine Austria January 1944 for overhaul.Completed overhaul March 1944.

1st Company /sPzJg Abt 653 sent to italy with vehicles from Feb-August 1944.

2nd and 3rd Companies sPzJg Abt 653 in action Russia from April 1944-October 1944.

Withdrawl through Galicia July 1944 , only 12 "Elefants " left with the sPzJg Abt 653.

1st Coy returns from Italy , 3rd moves to Fallingbostel/ Dollerman area for retraining .

2nd Company in the Krajkow/Tarnov area.

On the 15.12.1944 2nd Co / sPzJg Abt 653 is renamed as 614th Army Heavy Panzerjager Company.

It sees action at the Baranov bridgehead area...12.01.1945

Reports of no operational Elefants from 30.1.1945 to 20.02.1945 for that company.

4 Elefants from the remainder of the company withdraw through Oppeln , Breslau, Sorau (30.01.1945) ...through Frankfurt/Oder to greater Berlin area.

Combat in Zossen training area near Berlin.

So Steve....to your questions...

Yes the Ferdinand was know as that till reissued.

Upgraded Elefants seen action until the end on the Ost front( with Zimmerit

Hope this is of help..i gotta go to work now...but will post more when i get the time.

ps the History os the 654th sPzJg Abt is due out in September.

Regards

Måkjager

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for the info!

One quick question. I seem to recall that after being pulled out of Kursk they were outfitted with a field made MG mounted on the roof before going back into the frontline. Any information about that? This would have happened prior to being pulled back to Austria and receiving the hull MG and commander's cupola.

Thanks!

Steve

[Mr. Johnson--]

Why would that matter? Are you planning on making 2 or 3 varients?

[MikeyD]

An unrelated Ferdi/Ele tid-bit for the polygon maker. During the Ferdi/Ele refit it appears from photos the flat bolt-on gun shield was fitted back-to-front with the bolt side now facing... er... forward? (I'm away from my references). Once you start looking for it in photos it becomes very apparent. The gun shields then served this way til the end of the war.

[Mattias]

Steve,

This might well be among your sources but when it comes detailed facts I always start in the “Militärfahrzeuge” series by Spielberger/Doyle/Jentz. In the book covering the heavy JgPz’s (Band 15) the answers to your questions is given as follows:

[my translation]

1.

Hitler put on the 29th of November 1943 forth, to the OKH, a suggestion for changes in designations of armoured vehicles and different weapons.

The suggested changes where adopted and confirmed through an order issued on the 1st of February 1944 and then repeated on the 27th of February the same year.

The change in designation for the Ferdinand was:

“Elefant für 8,8 cm Sturmgeschütz Porsche”.

By chance this change was made just as the refurbished and improved vehicles where returned to the troops.

This coincident made it easy to differentiate between the original vehicle, the Ferdinand, and the improved version, the Elefant.

2.

They where never withdrawn “as such” but the small number of vehicles available made their presence on the battlefield a rare and somewhat sporadic affair. Måkjäger has it well covered. Mostly repeating but…

In action with the opening of Zitadelle.

--------

Ordered back to St. Pölten on the 10th of December 1943. The last of the 21 transport trains arrived at the destination on the 10th of January 1944.

--------

1. Kompanie (11 Elefant sent) sent to Italy, arriving in late February 1944. Withdrawn on the 26th of June that year, all vehicles remained in Italy (2 operational when the personnel departed).

--------

2. and 3. Kompanien (31 Elefant) were deployed to the east front in early April 1944

Withdrawn from the front on the 3rd of August 1944

--------

14 Elefant Back on the front on the 19th of September 1944

These vehicles remained at the east front to the very end of the war, from October operating as s.Pz.Jg.Kp. 614.

Last reported action was on the 22th of April 1945. 4 Elefant in support if KG Ritter armound, like Måkjäger said, Zossen.

3.

Yes, as can be seen above.

As for a poor excuse for an AFV…

For the period between the 5th of July to the 5th of November 1943 the 656 s.Pz.Jg.Rgt. incured the following losses on the Soviet forces:

582 Tanks

344 AT guns

133 Guns

103 At Rifles

3 Aircraft

Not to bad considering how the vehicles where constantly abused by sub optimal deployment in terms terrain and concentration.

Personally I was surprised by what I read in the combat reports from the Regiment. The picture of a perverse monstrosity of war was replaced by one showing a weapon of great capability when deployed correctly in an east front environment. It was far from the most cost efficient or elegant vehicle of the war but it was extremely powerful and technically more sound than the super panzer jägers that came after it. All things being relative of course, but at least the Elefant was usable.

M.

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

I know some of you have the expensive Schiffer book covering Panzerjâgerabteilungen 653 and 654 so here are some questions for you to justify the major expense of the book

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I case the Spielberge/Doyle/Jentz about heavy tank hunters is useful is well. Please ignore if you have it.

Name "Elephant" was suggestivname at end of november, official name from May 1944.

Withdraw command on 29 November 1943, two Ferdinands knocked out 54 enemy tanks on 25 November.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

3. Did they ever come back to the Eastern Front after being retrofitted with cupolas and MGs?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. They went to Italy in february 1944, but two companies were sent to the northern ukraine in April. The book has a complete chart of this unit, down to pistols and rifles.

Let me know if you want more details.

[Mattias]

By the way Steve..

Early combat reports indicated that the 88mm / L71 shell casings had a tendency to stick in the breach after firing HE grenades. Though this did not happen with AP grenades it was still an annoying problem.

I have numerous accounts of this being a problem with certain types of tank ammunition in most calibre’s. The Pzgr 40 grenades of the 50 mm gun had this problem for example.

A bit over the top for inclusion perhaps..

M.

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[killmore]

If Rarity is turned off - PLEASE let us select Ferdinand even if it was not present on East Front in say January 1944.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Don't worry killmore I don't think they will give it to us in 1943 and take it away only to give it back. B

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for all the info. OK, to sum up...

Original version called the Ferdinand. It lacked a MG of any sort. Deployed for July's fun and festivities know as Zitadelle.

After suffering from teething problems, they were withdrawn temporarily and a makeshift MG was added to the top of the turret (AA style found on most German tanks). They went back into frontline service until December 1943. (IS THIS CORRECT??)

On December 1943 all remaining Ferdinands were moved back to the Reich for some much needed retrofitting. Hull ball mounted MG was added along with a commander's cupola. Zimmerit and mechanical overhauling also done. Redesignated Elephant.

April 1944 31 Elephants were redeployed on the Eastern Front. With the exception of a small chunk of time (about a month) the remained there until they were all wiped out.

So how does that sound?

As for not having Ferdinands/Elephants between December and April, that will in fact be the case. We are being VERY strict about this. If the vehicle was not present at the front it will not be available. Period. That is the way we did things in CMBO and we insist on it. If we make an exception for this vehicle, people could request all sorts of other exceptions. Sorry

As for the vehicle being a "sorry excuse for an AFV" I guess that was an overstatement. After the started using it according to what it was better suited for (defensive), as opposed to the original design (offensive) it was able to do some amazing things. However, one has to wonder how much better things could have been done if they mounted the 88 L/71 on a better platform. Can you tell I am one of those people that thinks the "super heavy tank" concept is not the best use of resources?

Steve

[killmore]

Are you also going to limit number of them?

I hope I will not be able to purchase 40 of them in April 1944 - (since there were only 31 of them)

[Lee]

40, killmore? Planning on a big scenario, eh?

As usual, Steve is making us wargamers proud by trying to get every detail

as accurate as possible. Can't wait to try CM2. Great work, Steve.

[KiwiJoe]

If the price isnt too high I think these afvs will be AWESOME in CM2. Hunt/reverse back over a hill crest with good los, keep ya front facing the threat and you have 1 sweet as ubber-stand-off tank.

I don't think too many people will be stupid enough to use them to attack forward into enemy lines (what were the Jerries thinking???)

[Mattias]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Original version called the Ferdinand. It lacked a MG of any sort. Deployed for July's fun and festivities know as Zitadelle.

Yes

After suffering from teething problems, they were withdrawn temporarily and a makeshift MG was added to the top of the turret (AA style found on most German tanks). They went back into frontline service until December 1943. (IS THIS CORRECT??)

I for one have never seen a picture of an AA MG mount on a Ferdinand/Elefant.

There are references to MG’s being fired –through- the barrel of the main gun, I’m trying to find them now.

The immediate solution to the lacking close defence was the assignment of 12 PzKw III to the Regiment for use as infantry "sweepers".

On December 1943 all remaining Ferdinands were moved back to the Reich for some much needed retrofitting. Hull ball mounted MG was added along with a commander's cupola. Zimmerit and mechanical overhauling also done. Redesignated Elephant.

Two things killed the Ferdinands at Kursk: Mines and artillery.

The former was a primarily a problem related to deployment but the latter was due to the engine covers giving next to no cover at all to the large engine compartment. Shrapnel would enter the engine compartment causing fires.

This problem was remedied in the Elefants by mounting armoured engine covers offering improved protection from artillery and by a number of fixes that increased the over all fire safety

Spielberger & Co. Has a long list of the improvements made but only a few of them seems to fit the, outwardly apparent, scale of CM.

April 1944 31 Elephants were redeployed on the Eastern Front. With the exception of a small chunk of time (about a month) the remained there until they were all wiped out.

So how does that sound?

It is the picture presented in the documents published in Spielbergers book. And unless he is very much misstaken, which I doubt, it is the correct order of events.

Can you tell I am one of those people that thinks the "super heavy tank" concept is not the best use of resources?

LOL.. Your not alone there. Reading a bit more in depth about the Ferdinand/Elefant just elevated above the level of mechanical madness subsequently displayed in the Jagdtiger and even more so in the Maus project

Achtung Panzer does a good job of presenting the vehicle in brief:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz6.htm

M.

Hmmm... Looks like I'll have to do a bit of reading up on this HTML thing...

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[ 05-31-2001: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]

[Battlefront.com]

Killmore,

There are no hard limits even with rarity on. But I can tell you right now, I don't think there is any way that even in the biggest battle you would be able to afford more than a handfull of these buggers with Rarity on (even if Variable Rarity). They are going to be EXPENSIVE! Without Rarity on they will be expensive as well.

Thanks Lee

KiwiJoe:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If the price isnt too high I think these afvs will be AWESOME in CM2. Hunt/reverse back over a hill crest with good los, keep ya front facing the threat and you have 1 sweet as ubber-stand-off tank. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but the Soviets will get that nasty piece of work known as the ISU-122 or ISU-152. And since they built about FOUR THOUSAND of these they aren't going to be too hard to find on the battlefield. Thankfully for the German player, even though the ISU-152 could whack even a King Tiger into next year they could only fire about 1.5 rounds per minute Even the Elephant could withdraw faster than that

Mattias, thanks for the help. I totally forgot about the weak engine protection! I'm sure Charles has that noted, but I will make sure to remind him. As for the improvised MGs, it would be nice to see if this was widespread. If not, then we will go with just two different types as discussed above:

Panzerjäger Tiger (P) Ferdinand

Panzerjäger Tiger (P) Elephant

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Oh, Mattias...

I fixed up your post by taking out the {quote} {/quote} designators. If you are to use these you must use one pair for each block of text you are quoting. Putting one at the beginning and one at the end quotes the whole thing. Click on the "UBB Code is enabled" link in the message composition screen (just to the left of the text input box) for all the info you ever wanted to read on UBB code

Steve

[Mr. Johnson--]

Well, I'll still be able to tweak the scenario creator to my heart's content.

Ah yes they should be used like Pikes against Cavarly.

[Username]

Couple of notes:

The ammo storage supposedly had certain shells in hot spots inside the vehicle. They flew differently because of this.

Origional tracks and wheel problems. Tracks were to narrow and middle wheels had bearing problems from heating.

The vehicle had a wild drivetrain. Basically an electric motor on each drive sprocket. It should be able to spin in a circle and the game should reflect this somehow. This is a benefit to a fixed gun.

I forgot where I read this but I remember it so its true. I think.

Lewis

[John Kettler]

BTS,

The Ferdinand did have an MG, but it lacked a mount. As I've previously described, the MG was aimed and fired straight down the 88's gun barrel, with the breech open. Think of it as a crude coax MG. The Elephant had a proper bow MG.

While I've got your attention, please, please

put the U.S. AA halftracks in the Russian force mix. The recent Lend Lease thread showed that we supplied thousands to the Russians, which ought to be enough to handle any rarity arguments. Also, please come up with procedures allowing sustained fire for water cooled MGs, including the Russian Maxim which was frequently used in multiple mounts for AA

work. I firmly believe this area needs work and has for some time, particularly since Ian Hogg cites a four gun Vickers group during WWI denying all movement through an area for 48 hours, with only a handful of stoppages. The guns fired continuously, while being steadily replenished with ammo and water. I feel that the current modeling of water cooled MGs takes much of the oomph out of the Allied MG arsenal.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Username]

If it had a no bow mg, and a six man crew, were there two loaders? a full time mechanic or electrician?

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

If it had a no bow mg, and a six man crew, were there two loaders? a full time mechanic or electrician?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bet at one spent most of his time looking out of the periscopes to improve the miserable spotting of the beast.

[Dittohead]

The sixth man kept on eye out for exploding mine dogs.

[Kwazydog]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeyD:

An unrelated Ferdi/Ele tid-bit for the polygon maker. During the Ferdi/Ele refit it appears from photos the flat bolt-on gun shield was fitted back-to-front with the bolt side now facing... er... forward? (I'm away from my references). Once you start looking for it in photos it becomes very apparent. The gun shields then served this way til the end of the war.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mikey, what goes where when ?

Hehe, Ive re-read your post but Im not quite sure what you are referring too. Let me know or send me some piccies and I will make sure I model it if at all possible

Dan

[Freak]

From Achtungpanzer.com:

During the Kursk offensive until November of 1943, Ferdinands from sPzJagAbt 653 destroyed some 320 Soviet tanks and lost 13 Ferdinands, while entire 656 sPanzerjager Regiment destroyed some 502 Soviet tanks and 100 other vehicles. Ferdinands proved to be very effective when employed behind the lines.

Seems like these AFV's have quite a punch.

EDITED - for bandwidth.

[ 06-01-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]