Marco Bergman Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I was recently conversing with someone who was considering a Tiger I ambush scheme mod. After breezily assuring them that I was sure I had a photo or 10 of ambush-pattern Tiger Is, closer examination reveals that all the pictures are actually of some variant of a two colour dapple scheme instead. Has anyone with better reference sources got better pictures? Or is the Tiger I the only German vehicle which didn't sport this scheme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I think I was talking to the same person. I don't think I've ever seen a Tiger I in ambush scheme (though I also breezily assured them I'd scan a pic for them). Two colour cam seems much more prevalent. And now back to the race, where my man Sterling has just taken over third... ------------------ "Za Rodentia!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I've never seen a picture of an ambush schemed Tiger I. I've got books with ambush schemed Tiger II/Panthers/Jagdpanthers/Hetzers. But that's not you were looking for. And I don't have a scanner. Good luck though. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 AFAIK production of the Tiger 1 stopped in August 1944. Authorisation for the application of the 3 tone Ambush scheme was given in September 1944. This scheme was to be applied to vehicles at the factory producing the vehicle. As this came into effect after the final Tiger 1 was produced it is highly unlikely that you would see any Tigers sporting such a scheme...but this does not discount the field application of such a scheme. Regards Måkjager ------------------ Once an Ubërcabbage Always an Ubërcabbage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I don't know if anyone has seen this site before, but it has a ton of info on the Tiger. Here is a page with color schemes: http://www.panzer-vi.fsnet.co.uk/markingswest.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I'm with Måkjager on this one, I've never seen a Tiger with an ambush scheme in photos. The scheme was so complex that it seems unlikely to have been applied in the field, so with the possible exception of depot rebuilds I'd be personally surprised if a photo of one turns up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by Marco Bergman: I was recently conversing with someone who was considering a Tiger I ambush scheme mod. After breezily assuring them that I was sure I had a photo or 10 of ambush-pattern Tiger Is, closer examination reveals that all the pictures are actually of some variant of a two colour dapple scheme instead. Has anyone with better reference sources got better pictures? Or is the Tiger I the only German vehicle which didn't sport this scheme? I've got one. Kitty ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka The McNoldy Group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 OK, Kitty, I'll bite...where can we see it? I'm not doubting you, I'd just enjoy looking at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Hiya Guys, I have a pile of books here on camao applications and I too have not seen a Tiger in ambush pattern (though would like to see on too Kitty ). Måkjager's comments are spot on from what Ive read, although I have seen mention that vehicle sent for repair were at times repainted in the ambush scheme too. I do have a Tiger here that looks close though. The ambush scheme was apparently an attempt to make the camo on german vehicles more consistent. After Panzer Grey was phased out in early '43 the Germans began painting all new vehicles and when possible older vehicles in Dark Yellow, with the green and brown being shipped out to the crews for application on the field as they saw fit (which is why it wasn't uncommon to see vehicles with no at all). What I have here is a Tiger which is dappled in appearance in early '44. Im guessing the crews simply splotched on the two colours they were given in no particular pattern Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by gunnergoz: OK, Kitty, I'll bite...where can we see it? I'm not doubting you, I'd just enjoy looking at it. Kdoggy didn't find any such pictures because the Tiger I never ever was ever, and I mean NEVER, EVER painted with the ambush scheme. I can cite sources if you need me to. Kitty ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka The McNoldy Group [This message has been edited by Kitty (edited 03-18-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Kitty, I love your King Tiger, but it rarely shows up in the games I play. It would be great if you could do a Tiger I mod on par with the KT so your work could get more screen time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Also, considering what Kitty and Måkjager said, are the camo schemes in the link I posted wrong? This Tiger is awfully pretty: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by Kitty: Kdoggy didn't find any such pictures because the Tiger I never ever was ever, and I mean NEVER, EVER painted with the ambush scheme. I can cite sources if you need me to. Kitty OOOOHKay...now I understand, your earlier post meant that you had a source (that Tigers were not painted this way), not a photo of one, correct? I thought you were telling us you had such a photo and I was curious to see it. BTW I'd like to see you tackle the Tiger myself. [This message has been edited by gunnergoz (edited 03-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan: Also, considering what Kitty and Måkjager said, are the camo schemes in the link I posted wrong? This Tiger is awfully pretty: Thats nice. Very pretty actually. Where is it from and is it historically accurate? I looks like an image of a Tamiya scale model box top. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Is this coloure scheme realistic? Some here say they didn't paint them that way (at least not from the factory). However there may have been few that received that colour scheme in the field. Is that correct? That colour scheme above would look VERY nice in the game, so I hope some one Mods up a Tiger 1 like that for us This is a GREAT link BTW! (very pretty paint jobs here, all illustrations) check this out: http://www.panzer-vi.fsnet.co.uk/markingswest.html -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 03-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Fred Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan: Also, considering what Kitty and Måkjager said, are the camo schemes in the link I posted wrong? This Tiger is awfully pretty: That's a very nice website. I've tweaked KwazyDog's "A" Tiger from the MDMP mod set. It looks kinda like the Tiger in your post. Photo hosting by Photopoint.com ------------------ Later, Dave [This message has been edited by Sgt Fred (edited 03-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Um, Tom, I got that Tiger from the link you cited. (But your post is edited, so maybe you figured that out.) Where the author of the site got it, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Ahhh I see, I think some are confused as to what is the ambush scheme. The above picture is very pretty but it *isnt* the style commonly know as the ambush pattern. As you can see the above picture is simply and base coat of Dark Yellow with the green and brown colours applied over the top in various patters. This of course was the most common style (in many variations) of camo from '43 until '45. The ambush scheme is describe in The Eastern Front - Armour Camouflage and Markings 1942 to 1945 (by Steven Zaloga and James Grandsen) as 'thick distinct bands of green and brown secondary colours, with the bands speckled with small dots or bars of the dark yellow colour. Below is a pic of the style from the same book. The book is very interesting is they sort of thing excites you ...and here is a plate from a book called Tanks of World War Two by Jean Restayn. Its also a good book with lots of pretty colour plates of WW2 gear. In fact, I am 99% sure the Tiger above is from the same book Hope thats of interest guys Dan PS : Sorry Kitty, I made the same mistake as gunner up there! PPS: Like what youve done with the Tiger Fred [This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 03-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Dan I thought we were talking about a tricolor vs. bicolor camo scheme, so I was confused as to what the ambush camo scheme is. Fred, what you have done with Kwazy's Tiger is nice. Some more highlights and shadows would really make it stand out. John S has made some nice Tiger mods, but none of them really meets what I am looking for. His Panzer Grey mod is my favorite, but the grey is a bit out of place for the period depicted by CMBO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Ryan, maybe we are, hehe. Its kind of a confusing thread to follow Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Dan, I was the one that was confused. The first four posts were talking about the ambush camo scheme. I didn't realize that the ambush scheme was a specific scheme. I thought they meant a tricolor camo scheme, which is why I posted the link I did. It's all my fault. But if Marco, Kitty, or someone else wants to do an ultimate tricolor Tiger I, I wouldn't complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 KwazyDog, nice pic of that Ambush schemed Panther. Been trying to hunt down any recent hi-res mods of that but to no avail... ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Originally posted by Sgt Fred: That's a very nice website. I've tweaked KwazyDog's "A" Tiger from the MDMP mod set. I looks kinda like the Tiger in your post. Dave, Didn't your mother teach you any manners? It's not polite to post a nice picture like that and not share it with your classmates. Very nice job. Gordon [This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 03-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Thanks for the interesting photos and thread in general. Camouflage is one of my passions although I'm no expert about it. My impression, though, is that the Panther in the b/w photo is not wearing the depot/factory applied scheme but rather is likely wearing a field-applied effort to duplicate what was being applied by the pros. If you examine the factory applied scheme carefully, you will see that there was an effort to use the three colors in an intermingled fashion. The dots were applied in all 3 colors, in a contrasting manner, i.e. yellow dots went on green and brown, brown dots on yellow and green and green dots on yellow and brown solid fields. The theory as I understand it, was to come up with a scheme that would give both long-range disruptive patterns (the big red/green/yellow areas) and also provide close in camouflage speckling similar to the SS uniforms we have all seen. For such a scheme work, it has to be applied with some deliberation and methodology, taking into account color percentages, placement and percentages allocated to large areas and size and amount of small dots. Field expedient methods to do this would probably result in something like the Panther illustrated...close, but no cigar. Postwar patterns have, in some cases, continued to attempt to have the best of both worlds. The US Army's 1960's four-color scheme in West Germany was one outgrowth of this effort, as was the US Engineering Command's MERDEC four-color pattern system that was prevalent in the 80's. The MERDEC plan was interesting in that it provided doctrine and instructions for changing the four colors as climate and location changed. The earlier 4 color scheme of the '60's was more a rip off of the last WW2 German patterns and was not considered very successful. The Brits and Germans went a different route in vehicle camouflage after the war, leaning towards the bold, disruptive patterns. Typically you'd see black lobes and areas arrayed around the vehicle to disrupt view from a distance and break up the vehicle's outline. The latest 3-color patterns seen on humvees and German vehicles of late is derived from the Germans again, this time seeking to both disrupt the vehicle outline with black, yet to provide some camouflage coloration with the blending of brown into the green. I hope this rambling discourse has been of some interest and that it sparks feedback and continued dialogue in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 Originally posted by Warmaker: KwazyDog, nice pic of that Ambush schemed Panther. Been trying to hunt down any recent hi-res mods of that but to no avail... As some one who has been a military modeller for quite some time, my reference material is quite large but I can never recall seeing a Tiger I in an ambush scheme. BTW, There is a series of books published in Poland on the PzKpfw V (4 released so far). These include color plates and 1/35 scales of Panthers (and Bergepanthers) in various camo schemes, including Ambush. The series covers the Panther Ausf G, D, and A and the Bergepanther so far (one book on each). The good thing about the plates is that they show the schemes from all prospectives (eg left, right, top, rear and front), something not normally done. Excellent value for all you grogs out there. (there is talk about releasing a similar series for the Tiger). If anyone is interested, I'll post the URL for the publisher as soon as I get home. Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 here's my attempt at that camo pattern. Wheels need to be re-done I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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