Will CMBO Become Obsolete Upon The Arrival Of CM2?

[Scipio]

Question to BTS : is far as I know, the successor of CMBB is planned as 'Mediterranean'. Does this mean only North Africa or inluding Italy? If Italy should be included - and IMO this would be logic - the question for a 'CMBO II' is solved - you have the same units, the (nearly) same European landscape and a timeframe that includes 44-45. So what would make the difference to CMBO? Only the scenario text files, and they have no influence on the gameplay.

[Shep]

I think what Steve is saying is this:

That in order for the game system to keep marching on so we get all the thrills and chills of Combat Mission 2,3,4, II etc...

...he has to be responsibly selfish at some point. If the business side continues in good health, then we have an excellent chance of getting much of what we want.

Combat Mission is always going to be an 'incomplete' product, but as complete as Steve and Charles choose to make it within the framework of their business and personal lives.

BTS is hardly an impersonal corporation, after all. We all have as good a chance as ever of seeing the vast majority of what we want. They have an excellent and virtuous reputation not only for what they produce, but how they go about it, and how they listen patiently to their sometimes rude customers.

I've been disappointed with a few things that BTS hasn't done, and vocal about them. But I'm charmed with the product. It has and will retain its replayability, and is the best computer wargame that I've ever enjoyed.

I wish for all the world that they would refit CMBO, and I believe that they can, but won't, for 'selfish' reasons. But those same reasons are in their judgment 'selfish' for us as well, in that we keep getting more games. That works for me.

Mark

[Battlefront.com]

Hi all,

Just a few quick comments here. I certainly understand the reluctance of upgrading computers time and time again. That is why we always aim for last year's standard and not next year's. And we take a lot of flak for that from what we call Hardware Bigots But for game play and marketing reasons, we need to advance the game's look from version to version. Adding more terrain details, for example, is not just to make it look prettier. It is also to make the game more functional. Larger numbers of units and bigger maps also push hardware more, but they also increase game possibilities. We have, however, tried to keep the hit to the CPU and graphics card reasonable. That means 8-16MB video cards instead of demanding 32-64MB cards.

From a marketing standpoint, we will get roasted alive if we keep the same look for too long. Not just because the press is baised against "same old same old", but because customers are too. I mean... how many of you here really look forward to the next release of a 16 color hex based wargame that can run in under 1 MB of RAM and comes on a floppy disk?

We do very much understand that people don't want to see the Western Front abandoned. So understand that unless someone is saying that we are doing them an injustice by not upgrading CM1 for free, we don't have any problem with calls for us to do somefink about it We don't want to abandon it either. But there is only so much we can do at one time. Like I said, no final decisions have been about what we might do. But at some point, the Western Front WILL be covered again with the latest and greatest game engine we have. Just a matter of when

Steve

[Schrullenhaft]

Hey Steve while your here for the moment...

Can you share any further details on the "different shaped buildings" ? Will there be multi-tile sized buildings (for factories) or split-level buildings, etc. ? I'll admit that a good chunk of my fascination here is eye candy, but it can make for some different LOS situations.

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrAlimantado:

Could someone please enlighten me to why they rather would like to stay with the west front?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's simple. The majority of people here are old enough to remember the tyranical dictatorship that was the USSR, the most powerful threat to the "free world", filled to the brim with evil, capitalist-hating communists. Some people (and these are in the minorty) cannot play using these very same forces which would start up the Cold War just like some people now can't play the Germans because they associate them with genocide, Nazism, and evil.

Some people just feel they need to associate with the side they are playing as. This is not a problem when you are playing as your own country. In other times, when you are 'forced' to play as a country you know little about, you fail to care as much for what is happening to your men. I have some of this feeling when I play CMBO because I am Russian. Sure, I'll play as the Americans (even though they were the capitalist dogs standing in the way of the great Union I was once a part of), I'll play as the SS (even though they purged so many of my people some 60 years ago) and I'll play as mostly any other country featured. I'm not sensitive like that, just want tp have fun.

That's about it. To sum up, some people want to feel for their collection of polygons on screen.

[The Commissar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

That's simple. The majority of people here are old enough to remember the tyranical dictatorship that was the USSR, the most powerful threat to the "free world", filled to the brim with evil, capitalist-hating communists. Some people (and these are in the minorty) cannot play using these very same forces which would start up the Cold War just like some people now can't play the Germans because they associate them with genocide, Nazism, and evil.

Some people just feel they need to associate with the side they are playing as. This is not a problem when you are playing as your own country. In other times, when you are 'forced' to play as a country you know little about, you fail to care as much for what is happening to your men. I have some of this feeling when I play CMBO because I am Russian. Sure, I'll play as the Americans (even though they were the capitalist dogs standing in the way of the great Union I was once a part of), I'll play as the SS (even though they purged so many of my people some 60 years ago) and I'll play as mostly any other country featured. I'm not sensitive like that, just want tp have fun.

That's about it. To sum up, some people want to feel for the side they are playing as, and the majority of the players here come from Western Europe/America. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrAlimantado:

I must say that I am kind of surprised about the fact that a lot of people seem reluctant to want to play CMBB just because it is on the east front. (And some people even seem to want less improvements on CMBB just in order to feel better when they continue to play CMBO.)

Could someone please enlighten me to why they rather would like to stay with the west front?

M

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: DrAlimantado ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you just ask the source?

For me, the Western Front appeals more because of the geography of the land. I like green, hilly land with a lot of foilage to hide behind. I don't like flat land that lends itself to long-range tank battles. I mean, where's the strategy in that?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong (and I hope I am) but this is what we can expect on the Eastern Front. I'm pretty sure there's not a lot of woods and forests over there that can provide cover for one's troops. Didn't the whole battle over there take place in the winter anyway? All I picture is dead shrubbery and snow when I hear Russian Front. I'm sure there's more to this but that's the image that I get whenever the subject comes up.

City fighting would take care of the lack of hiding places for infantry, but honestly, does anybody like city fighting in CMBO? Frankly, I think it's a turn off. I played a battle already in a town and it was a bore. For one thing, the streets in CM are screwed. This is an obvious weak point in the game and needs to be addressed. The other thing that bothered me was that the street graphics are quite blinding and unattractive. That mod that darkened the street helped a little but it's still annoying. And that's why I don't like street fighting.

The one thing I am looking forward to in CMBB is the match up between the German tanks and the Russian ones. Now the Allies will be able to go head to head with the German heavies.

Okay, now maybe you can explain to me why you like playing the Eastern Front.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Colonel, go over to CMHQ and take a look at the CM2 screen shots there. Looks to me like there will be plenty of hills and trees for those who want them.

As far as "the whole battle over there taking place in winter"... Umm, no

I'm looking forward to the East front because of the huge variety of units and equipment. CM covers 1 year of warfare, CM2 will cover 4 years.

The only down side is that I won't understand anything my units say.

[rich12545]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> But, I do believe that the majority of the folks who have posted on this board since the long-ago beforetimes of Pre-Beta Days would upgrade an existing system, just to play another CM in any theater. I also believe that an even larger majority would upgrade to play CM2 East Front. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's why I think sales will go down with CM2. I think that virtually everyone who would be interested in a CM type game bought CM1. Most, maybe 80-90% of those will also buy 2. But there will be a lot of folks who don't want to upgrade and a lot who feel having CM1 will give them all the pleasure they need and a lot who aren't too interested in playing the east front. I actually fit into all three categories. And I don't believe there will be many new people who weren't interest in CM1 but will buy CM2. That's my take on it and, real frankly, I hope I'm wrong and BTS does very well.

[Panzer Leader]

Well Rich, your hypothesis does have a bit of merit, but I believe you are missing three important points.

#1, There are many people who are uninterested in the last year of the war in the west, but who have a fervent love of the Eastern Front. I hold as an example the fact that many wargames, both computer and board, will kick off their series with an eastern front game, with the west front either being an add on or follow up. Talonsoft's "East Front" is a perfect example of this. Also the "Panzer General" series was heavily weighted towards the East Front.

#2 It seems as if the Combat Mission series is becoming ever more popular, and though I had heard of it before CMBO was released, it didn't seem to get as much press as CMBB has already generated. I would guess that the BTS fellows are doing their best to get the word out, and that alone I think will double their sales. After al, they now have many thousands of advocates helping them.

#3 They are stepping up international sales. In the small market of the wargaming industry, the numbers of overseas sales is a much larger ratio than in "corporate" games.

I have no doubt that BTS will AT LEAST double their sales, and even create a new rennaisance of CMBO purchasers -- people who buy CMBB first, then go on to collect the whole series. Yes, BTS is doing everything right, and I am proud to be one of their fans and customers.

[Battlefront.com]

Colonel_Deadmarsh wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For me, the Western Front appeals more because of the geography of the land. I like green, hilly land with a lot of foilage to hide behind. I don't like flat land that lends itself to long-range tank battles. I mean, where's the strategy in that?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong (and I hope I am) but this is what we can expect on the Eastern Front. I'm pretty sure there's not a lot of woods and forests over there that can provide cover for one's troops. Didn't the whole battle over there take place in the winter anyway? All I picture is dead shrubbery and snow when I hear Russian Front.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh boy, you couldn't be more wrong than someone standing on the Titanic saying "this ship is unsinkable" 10 seconds before he was proven wrong

The battles on the steppes of Russia were the MINORITY of battles. It is the ones focused on by armor enthusiasts though, which is why they take on significance far out of proportion to their actual numbers. And yes, there were some HUGE battles fought in these areas, but the war was not decided there.

The forests in northern European Asia (Baltics, Russia, and Beylorus) made Western European forests look like trimmed hedges in around a city house. OK, a bit of an overstatement, but NOT by much. The forests in this area were so vast, deep, mature, and unpopulated that the Germans had huge problems fighting in them. The well maintained forests in the heavily populated Western European countries were simply too "friendly" compared to those encountered on the Eastern Front.

It is said that the German troops were like frightened childern for the most time. Overstatement, of course, but there is MUCH truth to this as a large percenatage of German troops came from urban areas. The Soviets, on the other hand, grew up in them and were quite at home.

Then there were the vast swamp/forests of the central front. We are talking about an area almost the size of Western Europe with nothing but swamp and trees. No roads worthy of the name, sparse villages, and hardly anything else to speak of.

Finland is another area that is particularly interesting area. It not only had deep forests like I described above, but also Arctic environments that were unlike any fought over by any "modern" army before (excepting the Winter War) or since.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm sure there's more to this but that's the image that I get whenever the subject comes up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should read at least one general book on the Eastern Front, because you are woefully misinformed

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Folks,

Also keep in mind here that the Eastern Front fanatics poo-pooed the Western Front just like this prior to experiencing the way we simulated it. I am sure it has made them want the Eastern Front even more, but I think the majority found that that Western Front is really cool and not the tactical cakewalk the sterotyped view paints it to be.

And of course we have the Pacific folks nipping at our heels as well as those who like other types of combat (like US Civil War, Napoleanonics, modern, space, you name it )

Steve

[rich12545]

Just in case.....I find myself irresistably drawn to CM2, I wonder how my system would actually fare. It is a k62-400, 160 meg of pc100 ram, and a voodoo3 2000.

[dalem]

I'm laughing to myself because I'm not even an East Front kind of guy and here I am trying to explain it to people.

Rich, Deadmarsh, in pure terrain types alone the Eastern Front has more variety than the West Front. Time-wise, four years. Equipment, troop type, doctrine; all have tremendous variety and scope. And don't forget momentum - it's easy to think of a feldgrau tide washing up to the gates of Moscow and then receding, but there were many, many little ebbs and flows during the entire conflict. And the amount of fighting, even in "quiet" sectors, well, it wasn't a peaceful time.

As Steve suggested, read a book or two and get a feel for that theater of conflict before making such sweeping dismissals of it. (Being uninterested in it is one thing, being uninformed about it and making judgements about it is another.)

Better yet, buy CM:BB when it comes out, play it, and ask people on this board questions - rest assured you'll get answers galore. My own little WWII library is fairly deficient in this particular area, but I expect it will probably increase in size by a significant percentage once folks start citing sources.

-dale

[Mord]

I wasn't all that interested in an Eastern Front type game until people on the board started touting it's gaming virtues. Now I am highly anticipating it. It will be great fun learning about the conflict and blowing things up. As I have stated before in other posts, CM is just as much an educational tool as a game, and I am very happy to be back in school!

Mord.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Dalem,

What books can you recommend on The Eastern Front or even Western for that matter?

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

Dalem,

What books can you recommend on The Eastern Front or even Western for that matter?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I am definitely the wrong person to ask about the East Front - as I mentioned, I'm very light in that area. For Western Front, well, what scale are you interested in? There are numerous summaries for the whole front, and at the large level they are all pretty decent, for more specific events there are the 3 Cornelius Ryan books: The Longest Day, A Bridge Too Far, and The Last Battle (Berlin). MacDonald's Company Commander is a great small unit account, and his A Time for Trumpets is the best overview of The Battle of the Bulge I've personally read.

Von Mellethin's Panzer Battles is good and does have some West Front stuff in it, although you have to watch it because he was trying to get in good with the U.S. and I don't trust his portrayal of the Soviet forces he opposed.

For more U.S.-specific I'd definitely recommend Doubler's Closing with the Enemy and Bonn's When the Odds Were Even. Perret's There's a War to be Won was the first book I personally read that gave the U.S. Army of WWII its due praise. Ambrose's stuff is readable and entertaining, and I enjoy it, but since he goes mainly by personal interviews and memories, the factual content isn't always up to snuff. So read it but then read someone else on the same topic.

Of course, Churchill's The Second World War is a must, as is Werth's Russia at War. Etc., etc., etc....

I'll stop now.

[Stalin's Organ]

East Front?? Oh anything by Sven Hassel of course!!

[Battlefront.com]

Rich, that system you got there will be fine. I'd put it towards a hair below the target system. Remember that the system you have now is about twice what our target system was for CM1 Obviously faster/more is always better for a game like CM (i.e. 3D and loaded up), but what you have there will work just fine for CM2.

Colonel_Deadmarsh, I have a few good general, inexpensive, and easy to "get into" books I could suggest to you. Here are a couple in no particular order:

"Campaign Series: Bagration 1944" by Steven Zaloga, published by Osprey Military. These things usually go for about $12-$16 and are quite good. Bagration was the Soviet summer offensive that destroyed the back of the Wehrmacht. It was the single largest offensive in the history of 20th century warfare (yeah, it does depend on how you define it ). Primary battles took place in Byelorus, which was forest and swamp for the most part.

Another late war book to see how bitter and brutal the fighting was... "The German Defensive Battles on the Russian Front 1944" by Alex Buchner, published by Schiffer Military History. Covers some of the bloodiest and tactically interesting fighting of the whole war (IMHO).

A great 1st person account is the highly praised..."Sodat; Reflections of a German Soldier, 1936-1949", by Siegfried Knappe and published by Dell (paperback)

Interested in terrain and weather? This nice paperback reprint of several post war US Army studies, conducted by German officers for the most part, was released a few years back. "Fighting in Hell", edited by Peter Tsouras and published by Ivy Books. I'll give you the ISBN on this one because I really think you will enjoy it... 0-8041-1698-9 In fact, if you are to just get one book, get this one. It has a little bit of everything in it. And for about $6 the price can't be beat

Steve

[Panzer Leader]

My suggestions:

"Enemy at the Gates" by William Craig. It gives a good account of the Stalingrad account.

"Stalingrad" by Anthony Beevor. It is a much more operationally centered perspective.

"Barbarossa" by Alan Clark. Very good and detailed general overview of the entire war in the east.

finally "Panzer Leader" by Heinz Guderian, "Panzer Commander" by Hans von Luck, and "The Rommel Papers" edited by B. H. Liddel Hart. These first hand accounts by german officers, and the creators of blitzkrieg warfare are spectacular.

Also "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer is a gripping account of a Wermacht infantryman on the east front.

I love the east front. It is truly an historical time.

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

My suggestions:

"Enemy at the Gates" by William Craig. It gives a good account of the Stalingrad account.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GACK! I forgot about Enemy at the Gates!! Bad Dale, no biscuit! (my copy's on loan so it wasn't on my shelf when I checked ) Panzer Leader is correct - this one should be at the top of your list.

-dale

[Sergei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

For me, the Western Front appeals more because of the geography of the land. I like green, hilly land with a lot of foilage to hide behind. I don't like flat land that lends itself to long-range tank battles. I mean, where's the strategy in that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve already corrected this, but I'd like to mention some more. Firstly, think about the attacks by Germans against Murmansk. That region is mountainous and swampy (no wonder why they failed). Also, think about the great battles in Hungary (hardly a flat region!) in 1944-45. And the battle for Berlin. No, east front was very varying area. The steppes were only a small part of it.

BTS, have I understood it correctly if I say that the Mediterranean sequel will also include the fighting in Balkans from 1941 till the end?

[Col Deadmarsh]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I have no idea where to start I guess I'll trust Steve and see if I can't find "Fighting In Hell" first. A little bit of everything sounds like a good way to start off.

Oh, and that's good to know that I was wrong about the terrain in Russia. Looking forward to CMBB more and more.

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]

[Jochen Schmidt]

BTS should put CMBO and CM2 in one package. That was/is my dream. So the improvements of CM2 would be ready to use on the Westfront.

I would also pay extra to get a "fresh & improved" version of CMBO - perhaps via patch or as a completly new version.

A lot of folks here are watching this game as their hobby, not as their business. So thinking in an oeconomical way is for BTS, not for us (perhaps only for our own money), so what i wanna say in my bad english, is, let the customers have their fun and not disapointment. I would be disapointed, if only the Eastern Front is playable with the new stuff.

Don´t flame me, it is only my opinion, i agree with the poster of this thread.

Greetings to all

Jochen

[Guest ckoharik]

Just my $.02 on the value that I have received from CMBO and why I am more than willing to purchase CMBB.

Not only has CMBO given me many, many hours of enjoyment in playing it, but it also turned out to be an extremely educational experience as well. Prior to playing the game I considered myself, while not even close to a grognard, somewhat knowledgeable on most aspects of WWII. However, this presumption was very quickly and ruthlessly crushed under the tyranical heel of demo of BTS's new game. [Author's note: It was sometime in the second turn of the first battle played in the demo that I realized I would be purcashing the full game.] Since that first encounter with humiliation I have gradually learned more and more about everything from the hardware used to the tactics required to defeat my enemies (some of them at least).

Ever since BTS started releasing tidbits of of CMBB my anticipation has grown for it. I am sure of two things. First, that I will be purchasing the game at the first opportunity. And second, that I will be learning much more than I know now about the East Front.

Thank you, BTS, for creating both a game and learning tool. (and damn you for making something that takes up so much of my free time!)