Will CMBO Become Obsolete Upon The Arrival Of CM2?

[danyzn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mord:

It will be BTS's penultimate triumph, work of art, game to end all games (add any cliches and or adjectives you feel would fit).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the ultimate triumph would be? Retiring on the beach?

[UniversalWolf]

Allow users to create new units complete with new models, texture maps, and data. The community will then take care of the retrofitting on its own, and enthusiastically at that.

[Mattias]

The East, then the Mediterranean, then the early years, after that CMII

That has always sounded to me like a splendid way to go. It will probably take BTS that long to develop CMII anyway. Creative genius requires time and after having tackled all the issues related to the first generation of CM games they should be ready to create CMII.

Then, by all means, start over with the West 1944-45.

M.

[Robert Mayer]

Everyone would love to have CMBO magically updated to CMBB standards. But it's hardly a no-brainer issue of "customer support." BTS has no particular obligation to continuously improve the game you bought. It works, they fix problems where they arise, and you got what you paid for. Now, it's nice when a company does retrofit improvements to a game, but I wouldn't hold it against them if they put their efforts into a new title instead.

The idea that it would make business sense to go back and redo CMBO after CMBB doesn't wash IMO. For such an effort to be successful, BTS would have to re-sell CMBO to pretty much everyone. Now, while some of the hardcore would gleefully pay another $50+ for the same game redone, I'm betting most gamers would choke on the idea of buying again what they already bought once. So I don't think that BTS would gain much from trying to sell a CMBO upgraded to CMBB standards. Now, if the West Front gets the CMII treatment, that'll be a whole new game, and there should be no problem selling it.

The effort needed to refit CMBO IMO again isn't something that could be done on the cheap or that easily. And it's a zero-sum game--retrofit an existing game (for which efforts you'd receive nada, as I've explained above), or work on a new, salable product. Seems a no-brainer to me.

In the world of computer games in general, rarely does a company try to keep their entire catalog of similar games up to date. You didn't see Doom upgraded to Quake standards, and when they did Falcon 4 they didn't give the "upgrades" for free to owners of the original Falcon, either. Sure, BTS only has one game really, but it's a whopper .

Besides, just because CMBB will exist with different features in no way makes CMBO worse. What, you wake up one morning and suddenly the game you enjoyed last night is no good because another, different game is out that has more features? Sheesh--I'm glad I don't feel that way about cars, I'd be broke

[Chupacabra]

When id released Quake II, did any Quake fans ask id to bring Quake up to Q2's standards?

CM's a great game, I'll probably keep playing it, but at some point you have to move on.

[Mord]

I am not really a proponent of CMBO being retrofitted (though it'd be nice) nor any of the other games they will make. What I am suggesting is that when all is said and done that maybe down the line they create an all encompassing CM that will cover all theaters. I'm not talking a rehashed conglomeration of what came before but a new game (maybe engine).

Each theater has it's own problems and kinks to be worked out and each additional game will tackle these problems. Once all has been relized and accomplished why not apply everything that has been learned into one great mega WWII game that covers all fronts and theaters. This I am sure will be many years down the road and alot will have been learned by then and computing power will be higher. Can it be done? It would definately cover the problem of retrofitting.

I posted a topic on this anybody wishing to discuss it please do so. I am interested in what people think.

Mathias, Steve made a statement in a thread before the BB crashed, that work on the new engine would start immediately after CMBB. I can't remember which but I read it and burned it into my brain. Whether that has changed I do not know, but it was stated.

Mord.

[rich12545]

I for one won't be buying any more incarnations of CM. Don't get me wrong. I REALLY like it. But that's it for two reasons. First, I would have to upgrade my computer and I like it the way it is. But even more important, I object to the way companies make separate games for what should be expansion packs to the original. Many of you will disagree but that's how I feel.

[Pvt. Ryan]

BTS never implied that Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord would cover any theater other than the West Front or any time period other than D-Day to the end of the war. Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin is not an expansion pack by any stretch of the imagination. It represents a different time period and a different locale from CMBO. It has new units, new terrain, new interface, new scenarios, new operations, etc. An expansion pack would just have new scenarios and operations. It would probably also have a patch to fix bugs in the first release. BTS has already given us all the patches for free, and since CMBO has a wonderful battle generator and scenario creating utility there is no need for an expansion pack full of new scenarios. If you don't want to upgrade your computer to play new games that is your business, but your accusation that BTS is selling CM2 mereley as an expansion pack sold as a separate game is completely groundless.

[dalem]

I agree with Mr. Mayer (and others) that a CM2 with more features doesn't make CM1 instantly bad. Theater distinctions are key to me; I am a West Front guy first, so I'll continue to play CM1 no matter what they do with the engine in the meantime. If BTS decides to somehow 'retrofit' CM1, then it will cost them money, and I will pay them. If they decide to wait until the CMII engine rewrite, and then revisit the West Front at a later date with the new engine, I will buy that. If they never do either of those, and CM1 is the only West Front game they provide to me, I will continue to play it.

I still play the original Harpoon by Three-Sixty, and the V for Victory games from Atomic, because I enjoy them. CM1 would be the same for me.

-dale

[Fenris]

I would pay money to have new CM2 features retro fitted to CMBO if possible.

How many other people would be prepared to pay? After all BTS is a business, making money is the idea, $15 or $20 patch CD or download wouldn't cause me any grief.

Reg's

Fen

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: Fenris ]

[rich12545]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fenris:

I would pay money to have new CM2 features retro fitted to CMBO if possible.

How many other people would be prepared to pay? After all BTS is a business, making money is the idea, $15 or $20 patch CD or download wouldn't cause me any grief.

Reg's

Fen

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: Fenris ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. CM1 and CM2 are basically the same game. Sure, 2 will have more features, different terrain, and different units but that's what makes for an excellent expansion pack. Like for $25. I think BTS will see sales go down for CM2. I don't believe there will be many new people drawn to the game and also many, like myself, will be happy with just the west front and see no need to spend $50 on what is basically the same thing on other fronts. Heck, I haven't even downloaded the desert rat program and that's free. It looks great but I just don't see the need since it doesn't include additional features and I still have hundreds of scenarios/operations plus a random generator to play.

[Col Deadmarsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

When id released Quake II, did any Quake fans ask id to bring Quake up to Q2's standards?

CM's a great game, I'll probably keep playing it, but at some point you have to move on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said in my opening post, updating Commamnd and Conquer or in your case, Quake, is an entirely different thing than updating CM. CM is a WWII game and we all have our favorite theaters due to movies we've seen, books we've read, etc. Quake is a sci-fi game with made up terrain, units, and even the history behind the game. Therefore, upgrading something like that to new terrain and units doesn't alienate the people who played Quake 1. It just comes out as a hopefully improved and slightly altered game. What we're facing here is something completely different. CM2 is not an improvement on CMBO. It's an entirely new game because of the different location. If it were the same location with a new engine and new features, there probably wouldn't be any of us lobbying for an updated version of CMBO in the near future.

[Andrew H.]

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to bring CM1 to CM2 stds because, as I understand things, most of the CM2 improvements will primarily relate to specific EF things.

CMBO would not be improved by including the Steppe terrain type. Nor would there be much improvement by adding all of the rules CM will need for radioless tanks.

I suppose CM1 would be improved by the addition of non-frozen rivers in snow and city fighting, but they were a relatively minor part of WF fighting. So CMBO won't be obsolete until the engine rewrite comes out, if then.

[Runyan99]

I have always wanted BTS to keep the series upgraded. Isn't that what they originally said that they planned to do?

Like Mord, I will be happy with nothing less than a game (or set of games) which cover the entire ETO, from '39 to '45.

Do not forget that CM2 will not just be new terrain and vehicles. There will be several changes in the gameplay itself (machineguns, grenades, several new and changed commands, etc). I think it will bother me if the gameplay mechanics in CM2 are not the same as I play in CM1.

I hope that after the release of CM2, BTS will release a patch to upgrade these core gameplay issues in CM1. That will keep me happy...at least until CM3 comes out and it is even better.

I say upgrade the old games until a complete re-write of the engine is done (for CM3?) and it is simply impossible to upgrade the old games.

As the original poster mentioned, I think it would help the longer-term sales of CMBO to keep it as upgraded as possible.

[Battlefront.com]

Folks,

Understand that we would LOVE to wave a magic wand and allow CM1 stuff to work with the CM2 engine. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. As is often the case, what looks to be VERY simple from the end user standpoint is anything but. It would probably take months to retrofit CM1 stuff into CM2. If we were to take the time to do this, I can tell you it would hurt future development and cost us money out of pocket as well.

We haven't made any definite decisions about what to do about this issue yet, so you will get no answer out of me other than to say a magical transformation of CM1 stuff into CM2 is impossible to do and therefore won't happen. What might happen is yet to be decided. We have two options:

1. Do nothing more with CMBO. Since you bought what you bought knowing that it wasn't going to magically morph itself into a new game every year, this is a perfectly justifiable approach for us to take. You guys have all got way more than your $45 worth out of CMBO by the looks of it, especially when compared to the average number of hours people put into the average game. So from a business point of view, you guys got a heck of a deal and asking more from us is unreasonable.

2. Do nothing with CMBO, but at some point release a new Western Front game using a new engine. If we used the CM2 engine it would be only fair to charge some sort of "upgrade" price instead of $45. Or we could simply hold off until we have rewritten the game engine and offer a new Western Front game which, basically, leaves CM2 in the dust.

As I said, we have made no decision about this and *will not* until after CM2 is released. We have a lot of things we want to do, and if push comes to shove we will spend our time moving forwards instead of backwards. But if we can do both at the same time... then we just might do that.

Rich's comments are something I wish to address specifically:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I agree. CM1 and CM2 are basically the same game. Sure, 2 will have more features, different terrain, and different units but that's what makes for an excellent expansion pack.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So Id should not be able to charge full price for Quake II, Quake III, or Quake IV if someone bought Quake I? Ridiculous. I mean, if you purchased a 1995 Honda Accord, would you say that a 1996 Honda Accord should only cost you 1/2 as much simply because they are both basically the same thing? I mean, maybe it cost Honda 5 years of engineering to make the 1995 model and only a year to make the 1996, so maybe you should only pay 1/5th as much?

Look, I agree with you more than you know about the shameless ripoffs that game companies churn out based on minimal changes. But dude... we are NOT talking minimal changes here. Four man years worth of work is going into CM2. It isn't just some quick bunch of changes that one of us did while sunning ourselves on the small island nation we bought off the money we took in from CM1. Far from it. If you don't think that CM2 is worth the full price, that is fine. But I then have to wonder if you think that ANY second game from ANY company is worth the price, regardless of how much work went into it. You can conceptualize what each is all you like, but the truth is that CM2 is costing us more out of pocket than CM1 and almost as much time. So if CM2 doesn't look like this is the case, then we really screwed up and didn't do a very good job. I mean, it isn't very good business to spend all sorts of time and money to make something that isn't any different than what one had to start with.

Steve

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich12545:

I think BTS will see sales go down for CM2. I don't believe there will be many new people drawn to the game and also many, like myself, will be happy with just the west front and see no need to spend $50 on what is basically the same thing on other fronts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow. Rich, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Most people that are into WWII gaming, whether tabletop, boardgame, or digital, have a real, real intense puppy love affair with the East Front. While I don't share that fascination myself, I understand it, and it is very, very real.

The only way BTS could "see sales go down" by publishing an East Front version of an already well-respected WWII tactical gaming engine is if they called it Combat Mission: Crunchy Frog, packaged it so that when you opened the shrinkwrap, polished steel springs shot out and pierced your hands, and then Madmatt showed up at your door and dropped a live scorpion into your shorts.

Nahh, on second thought, if it had a T-34 on the cover they'd still break records.

-dale

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: dalem ]

[Battlefront.com]

Runyan99

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have always wanted BTS to keep the series upgraded. Isn't that what they originally said that they planned to do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"if we could". I can now tell you that the answer is a solid "no we can't". Not without keeping CM2 limited to about the same feature set as CM1. We tried to find away around this, but code does not handle dramatic changes and backwards compatibility very well. So the choice was to hobble CM2 and keep compatibility with CM1, which would produce the type of "sequel" Rich fears we are making or we could just do what needed to be done to make CM2 all that it should be and figure out what to do about CM1 later. The choice was a no brainer. As much as we would LOVE to see how differently CM1 would play out in the new CM2 engine, it isn't something we can do without a lot of work. Work that has $$$$ associated with it as well as an impact on future development, which has $$$$$$$$$ associated with it.

We might support our customers better than most, but we aren't a charity case. If we were, we would have our non-profit status all set up and about 40% more money in our pockets

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Dale wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wow. Rich, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Most people that are into WWII gaming, whether tabletop, boardgame, or digital, have a real, real intense puppy love affair with the East Front. While I don't share that fascination myself, I understand it, and it is very, very real.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. Rich... we predict we will sell far more units of CMBB than CMBO. Not just because the Eastern Front has a bigger draw than the Western for wargamers (sorry, but it does...), but also because even those who don't necessarily love the Eastern Front will want to spend the $45 to get a fresh gaming experience. Like I said in an earlier post, you can not seriously tell me you haven't got your $45 worth out of CM1 about a thousand times over? Heck, I know some people who played the Beta Demo more than they usually played full games. So pardon me if I play a tiny little fiddle for anybody that thinks we somehow haven't provided enough entertainment for the price we charge

We have been in this business long enough to know what we are doing, and doing nothing but keeping one game alive for no charge is certain death for a developer/publisher.

Making full price barely-sequels or endless cheesy addons are not paths to certain death. At least not initially. But after about 3 releases or so sales will go down, all things being equal. The exception is if the game wasn't that good to begin with, or was a bit of flash in the pan, the 2nd game will be a lower seller all things being equal. So... I'd say that just looking at the industry in general, from an insider perspective of 8 years, I have to say your opinion doesn't match up with the facts. It doesn't make shameless ripoffs "right", but the facts are the facts.

Don't believe me? Talonsoft made, what, nine versions of the same game? Each one was sold for full price (IIRC #9 wasn't), yet the changes from one to another were fairly minimal. They did not backwards support the previous products and in fact, like two other wargame series I can think of, the same bugs/flaws showed up with each new release. But they are now defunct, so the lesson here is that you can milk the same cow only so much before you need to give it a rest and bring in a different cow

Now.....

If there were some law stating that if we made a WWII game that any other WWII games we chose to make, no matter how much time or money we put into it, could only be sold at 1/2 price... this BBS would be closed up and we would all be looking for different work. As Bob outlined above, there is something called the reality of development costs. One can pretend that they don't exist, but they do. Sometimes in this world people get what they pay for.

With CM we feel you all got WAY more than you paid for, and we are happy about that. We wish to continue this with every game we make. The day we over price and under deliver is the day I quit this job and do something else for a living. We deserve to make money from our efforts (this is a Capitalist world after all), but we won't make it by ripping people off.

Steve

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Big Time Software ]

[Nabla]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

1. Do nothing more with CMBO. Since you bought what you bought knowing that it wasn't going to magically morph itself into a new game every year, this is a perfectly justifiable approach for us to take. You guys have all got way more than your $45 worth out of CMBO by the looks of it, especially when compared to the average number of hours people put into the average game. So from a business point of view, you guys got a heck of a deal and asking more from us is unreasonable.

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me be the first one to say that you are absolutely correct about this one. Someone is going to be greedy enough to try and argue with you about this one, but probably for more than 99% of us this statement is so very true. Compared to the joy this game has given it costs almost nothing!

[rich12545]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Yup. Rich... we predict we will sell far more units of CMBB than CMBO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you do. I just don't think so.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Like I said in an earlier post, you can not seriously tell me you haven't got your $45 worth out of CM1 about a thousand times over? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I never said I didn't. I play CM more than any other game and that's a fact. But it hits the limit of my machine. I've been buying new computers and upgrading since 1981 for games and that's enough. I have no particular love for the east front (however if you came out with a pacific game I'd seriously reconsider) so I won't be upgrading again. Believe me I appreciate all the work you've put into the game - it's the best I've ever seen, but it has infinite replayability and I see no need for another, even if it has a few more bells and whistles.

[lcm1947]

Hey BTS, you could count on a pin's head the number of people that don't think that they got thier money's worth out of this game. That's a given. It's tops. We ( alot anyway ) love the Western Front and would be more than willing to fork over another $50.00 to have it upgraded to compare with CM2. Please don't think that we demand it or think badly of you for not doing it if it doesn't make good business sense. You guys losing money wouldn't be good for anybody and I personally hope you guys get rich over your games. You deserve it for coming up with such a wonderful game. Oh the other hand don't get bent out of shape for us discussing the game we love and wanting upgrades. Maybe it gets old for you guys to keep hearing us talk about upgrades but it doesn't mean we don't think the world of BTS, we do, people just talk about what they like or in the case of this game - love.

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich12545:

quote (BTS):

---------------------------------------------

Yup. Rich... we predict we will sell far more units of CMBB than CMBO.

---------------------------------------------

I hope you do. I just don't think so.

quote (BTS):

---------------------------------------------

Like I said in an earlier post, you can not seriously tell me you haven't got your $45 worth out of CM1 about a thousand times over?

---------------------------------------------

And I never said I didn't. I play CM more than any other game and that's a fact. But it hits the limit of my machine. I've been buying new computers and upgrading since 1981 for games and that's enough. I have no particular love for the east front (however if you came out with a pacific game I'd seriously reconsider) so I won't be upgrading again. Believe me I appreciate all the work you've put into the game - it's the best I've ever seen, but it has infinite replayability and I see no need for another, even if it has a few more bells and whistles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah well, I certainly understand the upgrade qualms, and I respect that. If you would need to upgrade your machine just to play a game, and you choose not to do it, then that's perfectly reasonable. I, for instance, would not switch to a Mac platform just to play CM if BTS ever dropped PC support.

But, I do believe that the majority of the folks who have posted on this board since the long-ago beforetimes of Pre-Beta Days would upgrade an existing system, just to play another CM in any theater. I also believe that an even larger majority would upgrade to play CM2 East Front.

I think it's important to look at this not just from a digital gaming perspective, but from a wargaming perspective, and as we've been pointing out, for WWII wargaming, East Front is "the bomb". There's is no way to avoid that fact.

So I'm not saying that your opinion as to your level of, oh, commitment (for lack of a better word) is incorrect, but I am saying that you're in the minority there, and that is one of the reasons why BTS sales will go up with CM:BB, not down.

-dale

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: dalem ]

[Col Deadmarsh]

First of all, I share ICM's sentiments. We are not complaining that we got ripped off or that we (the Western Front fans) are being ignored. We are only doing what comes naturaly, protecting the game we love (CMBO).

Hell, I'm not a huge fan of the Eastern Front but I will definetly be buying the game because you guys did such a fantastic job with the first one. It also helped hearing about all the units and the history behind this scenario from the people on the board. It's got me more interested in the Eastern Front than I have ever been.

I have to say, I'm glad to hear that relative spotting will not be in CMBB. This would've been a MAJOR upgrade/change that would've put a few grey hairs on CMBO's head. Frankly, I want to see a minimal amount of changes in this upcoming game because it will mean keeping the first game somewhat up to date for a longer period of time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Steve said:

Talonsoft made, what, nine versions of the same game? Each one was sold for full price (IIRC #9 wasn't), yet the changes from one to another were fairly minimal. They did not backwards support the previous products and in fact, like two other wargame series I can think of, the same bugs/flaws showed up with each new release. But they are now defunct, so the lesson here is that you can milk the same cow only so much before you need to give it a rest and bring in a different cow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sounds a lot like the tale of Atomic. They come out with a new idea for tactical combat with CC1, then improved the grachics and gameplay and make a classic with CC2 (Market Garden.) At that point, they needed to fix the AI going into CC3 (The Russian Front) but they didn't. In addition to that, they didn't improve on the game much at all and in fact (and somebody please tell me how this is possible) went backwards in technology and made the tank graphics even worse in future additions. CC3 was a hit with a lot of people because it took place on the Eastern Front but after that, the series went downhill from a monetary standpoint because the company refused to expand on the once great game they had created.

I don't want to see this happen to CM so I am all for moving on, but I hope that CMBO continues to be a game people want to play until an updated version of it can be done by BTS in the near future. If it can't happen after CMBB, then I'm praying it will after the new CM II engine is created for the 3rd installment in the series.

[imported_argie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

I have to say, I'm glad to hear that relative spotting will not be in CMBB. This would've been a MAJOR upgrade/change that would've put a few grey hairs on CMBO's head. Frankly, I want to see a minimal amount of changes in this upcoming game because it will mean keeping the first game somewhat up to date for a longer period of time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must say that I am kind of surprised about the fact that a lot of people seem reluctant to want to play CMBB just because it is on the east front. (And some people even seem to want less improvements on CMBB just in order to feel better when they continue to play CMBO.)

Could someone please enlighten me to why they rather would like to stay with the west front?

M

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: DrAlimantado ]

[Sergei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

...this is a Capitalist world after all...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Steve,

just ask me and I'll fix ya a green card to North Korea!