Poll: Real time vs WEGO difficulty

[Guest Pillar]

First of all, let's not turn this into a debate about which is better or any of that other bullcrap.

I just want a straight answer because I'm curious:

In your experience, is it generally more difficult (more demanding on the player mentally) to play WEGO like CM or Real Time Strategy, like CC and the Warcraft variants?

Appologies in advance for those who can't answer this in a mature fashion.

[This message has been edited by Pillar (edited 09-05-2000).]

[Check6]

I would say WEGO is more difficult. Necessarily, RTS's are dumbed down signicantly to prevent information overload... a turn-based sim can hit the user with both barrels full of decisions and detail and really require some thought.

[stodge]

I find it more difficult to do real-time. I can't keep up with the events on the battlefield.

[iggi]

It's not a question about difficulty. The question is which is more appropriate.

For a large battle, real time doesn't make sense for one person to control.

WWii online is real time but every player role plays one person. In CM, you role every squad leader/tanker etc.

[Lorak]

pillar... I believe you have started a post that can only go bad..

But i will give you my opinion,

RTS can be fun, You obviously can't control as many units or give as detailed a plan. Your more just clicking to get them where you want them and scaning the map real quick to make sure you haven't missed anyone. But the quick play does add a nervous tension.

Turn based games I prefer for several reasons. First your not under a big time restrant so you can plan your tactics better and your plan follows more of a guideline. In most WeGo games you don't really get nervious because it is just plotting and resolving. In CM (with wego) the lines are blured so you still get the nervious tension when the movies are played out.

In the most simple terms.

RTS usualy equals fast and fun.

Turn based equals slow and thinking.

Wego( to me) is the perfect blend.

Lorak

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Lorak

Proud commander of the CCT's! Chinchilla Commando Teams

[Guest Pillar]

I guess I should put my own 2 cents in...

I find that with the WEGO system Combat Mission uses I find myself analyzing the situation much more. I also tend to think ahead more as well, predicting things etc.

It's really quite enjoyable.

I never played Warcraft and games of that ilk, but when I used to play Close Combat I didn't feel challenged mentally nearly as much. Sure the action was constant, but there were far less factors to think about.

All fun though.

[Mace]

Real time probably gives you the chance to intervene if something goes seriously wrong.

Given this lack of flexibility, WEGO probably requires some more planning and forethought!

Mace (my apologies, I'm not used to providing mature answers)

[Guest Mirage2k]

So many polls, so little time...

I think that WEGO is probably harder to grasp initially for the average Joe, and it also presents more opportunity for "information overload." Real-time is more intiutive, but unit orders are significantly dumbed-down. WEGO also requires more planning.

So...I guess I say WEGO is more difficult (but perfect for CM).

-Andrew

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[eba]

Depends on what you mean by "demanding." RTS requires quicker thinking (and often manual dexterity) to deal with lots of things happening in lots of different places all at the same time. In my mind, it's less strategy than reaction. WEGO, in my view, is much more demanding mentally simply because you're given time to think, to ponder, to plan. It's more of a mental exercise than one of dexterity. My two cents.

[Hamstersss]

Pillar, you limey bastard, any rat stupid enough to compare real-time to WEGO should be shot! SHOT!

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Did someone compare this to the Ealing comedies? I've shot people for less.

-David Edelstein

[Abbott]

I have played both, RTS and turn based. I have always enjoyed the thought process that comes with the turned-based games more. RTS was fun in it’s day but suffers from burn out quickly.

The WEGO system is an excellent approach. I enjoy it tremendously. As far as tension goes, heck, it starts in the set-up phase of all PBEM games. Then continues on everytime I ease a piece of armor from cover to get a shot. Or rush a squad or platoon from cover to cover. CM is full of tension.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar:

I just want a straight answer because I'm curious:

In your experience, is it generally more difficult (more demanding on the player mentally) to play WEGO like CM or Real Time Strategy, like CC and the Warcraft variants?

[This message has been edited by Pillar (edited 09-05-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok Lets just stick to the question

First off we are talking about GAMES

Fun games people play in their spare time, for FUN.

so this is not some life or death huge issue like having a baby, buying a house or getting married ( boyt that sound like a Whole hell of a lot of REALITY for one sentence didn't it)

If asked my opinion of "is it generally more difficult (more demanding on the player mentally) to play WEGO like CM or Real Time Strategy"?

I would say I love to Play Myth II Age of Empires and Warcraft and Command and Conquer, all are RTS video games, and (I emphasize) IMHO when playing a against a whiley human like any teenage kid who is FAST and good at the game (I'm over 35) they can be VERY mentally demanding. I like the RTS because it is FAST and it is fun.

I think that CM on TCP/IP with Timers will give the EXACT same effect and make things fast and fun and tense again.

I like the quick action and the tense RTS action.

But I LOVE CM just the way it is.

BUT I would say a Big RTS game of Age of Empires is MORE mentally demanding because those games require resource harvesting and ballanceing in the case of Age of Empires the need to gather food, gold, wood, AND stone, and balance your fighting and gathering and production with your available resources, I would say this is WAY more mentally demanding than taking as much time as you want to plan tactics in CM.

Again only my personal experience.

-tom w

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the need to gather food, gold, wood, AND stone, and balance your fighting and gathering and production with your available resources<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is why I'm sooo looking forward to Red Alert 2. Much less micromanagement.

[Guest Pillar]

"I think that CM on TCP/IP with Timers will give the EXACT same effect and make things fast and fun and tense again"

Indeed, that will be very interesting. Better start practicing now

"Pillar, you limey bastard, any rat stupid enough to compare real-time to WEGO should be shot! SHOT!"

Surely not with a weapon as inhumane as the infamous secret Gerbil-Cannon with it's highly advanced S.N.I.F.F rounds!!?

[Guest Pillar]

Of course... nothing is quite like a full blown campaign running in WEGO time.

[insert CM RPG here]

[This message has been edited by Pillar (edited 09-05-2000).]

[Simon Fox]

Here we go again: from Pillar to poll.

[Bullethead]

Realtime and WeGo are both tools used to model tactical situations. But like a set of wrenches, you need different tools for different jobs. So used appropriately, I like both.

If you need to use realworld tactics, then realtime only works if the player's span of command is very small: 1-4 units or so. More units than this and realtime games become clickfests of tank rushes, where realistic tactics are thrown out the window. NOTE: this is recognized in real life, where officers rarely have more than 3 subordinate units (tripod organization). So realtime works for 1st person things like flight and tank sims, which might give you command of a flight or platoon. Beyond this, you're talking RTS games that, while fun to some, have no basis in reality at all. OTOH, turn-based 1st person games don't work well.

WeGo, OTOH, allows use of realworld tactics on any scale. This makes it possible for a player to command companies and battalions and still give each unit the required amount of attention that in real life would be supplied by the leaders of the subordinate formations. Which is the real deciding factor. The player has to be the leader of every squad, team, platoon, and company in his force. Forcing him to do all these jobs in the time given to only 1 such leader is totally unrealistic, and tactics suffer accordingly.

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-Bullethead

Want a naval sim? Check out Raider Operations at www.historicalgames.bizland.com/index.html

[Guest Michael emrys]

Well, since you asked...

I got turned off of RT when I tried to play CC1 and my mortar team ran out of ammo because I forgot about it while trying to attend to something else. I could see the shape of things to come right there. I put the CD away and never played the game again.

I guess it would have been different if I could have given orders while the game was paused, kind of take stock and sort things out. Victory at Sea was like that, and I liked that well enough (but don't take that as an endorsement of a very buggy piece of software).

I think I could go for an RT game that had a workable pause feature. I would miss having a replay that I could replay over and over, but I guess I could rationalize that if I had to.

Michael

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar:

In your experience, is it generally more difficult (more demanding on the player mentally) to play WEGO like CM or Real Time Strategy, like CC and the Warcraft variants?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my experiance, RTS are more difficult and demanding in the sense that you are pressured to make decisons and do actions quickly. Of course, there is a differance in the difficulty of the SYSTEM used, WEGO or RTS, and the GAME itself.

In other words, the RTS enviroment is more demanding in terms of planning, executing a plan or movement. It generally leads to overly simple plans and methods and I find that at times certain areas are neglected. With a turn based or WEGO system one can implement well thought-out and complex plans and methods.

As far as GAME play, my opinion is that turned based or WEGO games generally require more skill and thought to play. The game itself is harder to play rather than the enviroment the game is played in. IMO, I'd rather have a tough game to play over a tough enviroment to play in.

CavScout

[Dittohead]

I don't mind RTS as long it has a pause button. Just got AOE II Expansion. Its nice to pause once in awhile, well every 5-10 secs for me.

WeGo is the best and gets my vote.

**Note to the cesspool, please close the interdimensional transporter when you post to other threads. It seems Meeks got out again and needs his medication .

[This message has been edited by Dittohead (edited 09-06-2000).]

[dalem]

I find RTS much more difficult, myself.

Whether that's because I'm an 'old guy' who was raised on boardgames or not, I don't know, but I find my level of enjoyment to be far less in RTS-world.

-dale

[Nitsud42]

I don't mind RTS as long it has a pause button. Just got AOE II Expansion. Its

nice to pause once in awhile, well every 5-10 secs for me.

(and I'm sure your on-line opponnet wants to pause every 5-10 seconds too).

Having played CC and CM, CC is nice online against a human for short (small) battles. As long as the phone doesnt ring, no one knocks on the front door, none of the kids (or grandkids) are crying/fighting/screaming or otherwise interrupting my game.

WEGO and turn based pbem is better when I can play when I have time and can stop when ever I have too and come back in 5 or 10 minutes or even a day or two later. (ok two days waiting for a CM pbem file to return is streching it~ <G>)

[tedrik]

hi pillar,

quite a tricky question. i find RTS mentally more demanding because i get so frustrated when i can't keep up with the mouse-clicks.

if i look at what system makes more demands on my mental skills i have to say turnbased.

before i got hooked on CM, the game i played most is CIV2. AoE2 is an exception because of the pause feature. i play AoE2 like a turnbased game - PAUSE, give orders, unpause until orders are executed, PAUSE. bit like CM in fact, sans movie of course.

so for the poll: WEGO for me.

cheers

tedrik

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'Every attack ends in a defense'. Clausewitz

[Guest Pillar]

The post bullethead made reveals a really good point that all game designers should keep in mind.

Does anyone have any comments on how the Shogun RTS interface turned out? Does it work well with the game and the type of fighting? Keep in mind what Bullethead brought up.

[Spear]

Since I've been playing boardgames and miniatures for more than 20 years, I am much more comfortable with a turn-based system for most games. Although I enjoy real-time for certain things (flight sims and shooters), I prefer turn based games. I agree with William Trotter (PC Gamer's wargame columnist) that RTS systems just can't compete with turn-based systems when it comes to serious simulations for anything but the most tactical levels. And I think that BTS really advanced the state-of-the-art for turn-based games with the WEGO concept. Simply brilliant!

As far as which type is more demanding, well, I can handle RTS games like Age of Empires at the beginning of the game when I don't have many units to worry about, but I quickly get overwhelmed when the unit count increases. I guess I'm just old fashioned! Or perhaps just old...