This game is becoming a synopsis of a dying PC Games industry

[MCab]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davedial:

Marketing is my chosen field. DD<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, really? On your profile, I could've sworn it said:

RADIO ANNOUNCER

I am educated in it and experienced in it.

DD

[Darstand]

Davedial: Games like CM are why the PC Game market will never die. I don't like consol games, never have. Because there are no games like MOO, MOO2, Fallout, Combat Mission, StarCraft, and SMAC. Until somebody in the consol market starts making games that require thought instead of twich reflexes The PC game Market is alive and well......

[Guest Madmatt]

Hmmm...All this is very interesting...Now I would expect that you all are awaiting a patened Madmatt 'BITE ME' response to the original poster but as I just spent all day in an offsite teambuilding exercise I am filled with understanding, leveraging learnings and shared visions expressed with candor. So let me say candidly that I would like to leverage a crowbar upside your head and share a vision of your brain as it learns to survive without a host skull! Understand?!?

Geez...This guys calls us all a bunch of brownshirts when he damn well knows it has already been firmly established that everyone here is either a COOL GUY or a SYCHOPANT!?! Doesn't anyone pay attention anymore!?!

Now I am not a markeeter (although some have said that my work here and on CMHQ could be held as an equivilant to an honary MBA) and what I am is a part-time wargamer that used to be a bouncer. So if I take the intriguing theroies presented and apply them to my former profession how would it play out?

Hmmm, Lets look into this. A bouncers primary job is to stop fights from occuring and keep the majority of the paying customers safe and free from danger that establishments which serve liquer or adult entertainment often are prone to. This means fighting and sometimes getting VERY physical with members of the general public. Most nights there will be a fight and at that time I would step in. I could not always anticipate wheter a fight would occur on a given night, they just happened when they happend. They happened when they were READY to happen. Now then if I were to apply these new learnings I would have to deduce that since the product that I supported was in essence phyical altercations that resulted in peace and that the paying customers were the ones 'BUYING' this product, as they were the ones which started them and were affected by them it would be reasonable to see that FIGHTS would NEED to occur in order to bring about the peace and comfort that the people would enjoy. Since conflict always resulted in the offending parties being removed from the premises and peace resulting after such an event, its safe to say that FIGHTS were in fact the product. Now, I would need to guarantee that this would happen and basically SHIP THIS PRODUCT as soon as applicable. So to do this I would need to beat the living crap outa of the first person that set foot into the bar in order to accelerate the PRODUCT being SHIPPED and enabling the CUSTOMER to have access to the PRODUCT immediatley.

But what if I hear that the bar across the street is carjacking its prospective CUSTOMERS in the parking lot? They are going to MARKET with their PRODUCT before me!!! Well the only sensible solution is to increase my CUSTOMER base and aggresively seek out prospective COMSUMERS. Thats simple enough to do, I will just randomly start beating the hell outa people on the street! Dont you see, by accelerating the PRODUCTION of the PRODUCT (fights which end in post combative peace) I will gain a larger market share (beat up people who are now peaceful) and will come out as the industry leader!

Wow I could just NUKE the entire world and dominate the global market of PEACE!

Madmatt...

MISSION STATEMENT: BITE ME

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

combathq.thegamers.net

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 03-15-2000).]

[Guest KwazyDog]

I must admit, I got pretty pissed when I read that post too, hehe, until I read his apparent occupation.

He just doing what the media does best He is trying to create controversy by **** stirring the population with untruths and hype.

Sorry, wrong crowd 'Dave' (this one can talk back), soooo, do you want to go for double jeopardy when the scores can really change .

[Username]

I think the only people who should be agravated are those that sent their credit card numbers to Big Time Software. They in good faith put up the "funds" because they cant wait a second longer.

I will wait to purchase "when its ready". That means after it is released and everything is working. Thats my decision as a consumer. So the moneys waiting on you guys to finish.

The only real marketing or sales danger is if someone were to release something similar while you finish up. Something with a similar name like "Combat Action" or "Armor Mission" would confuse the market. Just like all those "panzer" games that came out.

Now lock this thread so I get the last word in again..

Lewis

[Allan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MCab:

What exactly does that mean? Did you go to Harvard business school for your MBA or did you learn from selling your medication in high school?

*end clip*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He is the head cheese over at the Gamer's Alliance site. He can be controversial and some people think he a total jerk. I do not know enough about him to have an opinion one way or the other.

Allan

[dumbo]

To respond more soberly to the points made.

1.) PC games suffered a large drop in comparison to console games becuase of the piracy issue. With PC games being pirated at a rate of 7-1 (one legit copy for each 7 stolen the more hardcore the game the more it is pirated) then consoles with a lower piracy rate became much more ptofitable. Recently however online games such as Everquest and UO have become very profitable by requiring payment to play. These are not nessecarily great games but they have zero piracy hence UO is the most profitable game in EA's history (no mean feat). PC games are MUCH more popular than console games but have become less profitable due to stealing.

2.) While delaying release frustrates many gamers it is the devloperes who suffer. They watch thier dwindling funds get eaten away every month by payroll (if they get paid at all). Having been in the situation myself I fully appreciate BTS's commitment to quality. Putting game tweaks above profit is a noble act indeed.

3.) There is zero danger of PC games becoming obsolete. The opposite is true. If its a choice between buying for your family a PC which can be used for all manner of eduactional , professional or internet purposes and an entertainment box most responsible families will get the PC first. With the internet playing an increasing role in the lives of western citizens having a PC is becoming as nessecary as a phone. Consoles are unable to take full advantage of the internet as they have no keyboard. Sales of the Dreamcasts keyboard interface have been poor as the resolution for TV's is very difficult to read small text on.

4.) Yes it is incredibly frustrating to know there are a lot of posters here who are playing the beta. I understand the posters desire to give BTS a "kick in the pants" but his actions are misplaced. What possible motive could they have for delaying thier own game? Piss potential customers off and delay profits? The real reason is they dont want to realease a half assed product. I applaud them. I havent given BTS a DIME and neither have you (according to my credit card they havent billed me yet), but since posting here I have been treated like a customer and I appreciate that very much.

cheers

_dumbo

Just my musings for those interested.

[This message has been edited by dumbo (edited 03-15-2000).]

[Lorak]

This isn't in response to the topic. (why bother?)

This is in response to Username. BTS can second this.

There seems to be the mis-information that those of us that have pre-ordered have pre-paid. This is not the case. Pre-ordering is just a way to show support(I believe), and try to get the product faster. BTS has not charged anyody who has pre-ordered yet. They are waiting until the game goes gold.

Did I leave anything out?

Lorak

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This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. Without my rifle I am useless. Without me, my rifle is useless...

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

[This message has been edited by Lorak (edited 03-15-2000).]

[Howitzer]

Sorry Dave-o!

While I DO have other interests that occasionally pull me away from CM (photography, reading, etc.), and more important things in my life (God, wife, children, friends), and many, many entertainment choices (Nintendo, cable, movie theatres, parks, travel, etc...)...

I will patiently wait for CM...

...and, yes, on the PC (Mac actually); can't see playing it on my TV with a Nintendo controller...

...and, no, those other things won't divert my attention, money or CM pre-order $.

Why? Because there is NO COMPARABLE GAME right now, nor is their likely to be one in the near future. Wargamers are not the same as FPS players, generally, and so your entire market rationale goes into the toilet. (Someone rescue the baby, first!)

BTW, you would probably have predicted Apple going out of business about 2 years ago, correct? And, where are they now? 10:1 stock growth? Growing market share like crazy. Still #1 in education, BECAUSE OF COMPELLING PRODUCTS PEOPLE WANT!

Also, many analysts predicted in the early '80's that Ford would NEVER increase its market share for automobiles, because foreign marques and GM would forever dominate. And, where are they now? Fighting for the top spot, with SUPER PRODUCTS PEOPLE WANT!

I predict BTS will still be making quality software (most likely incredibly cool wargames) for years to come. Heck, I'd preorder for CM2, CM3 and CM4 RIGHT NOW!

Thanks for your input Dave...now, on your bike!

Steve C.

PS My shirt is more of a golden color, not brown.

[This message has been edited by Howitzer (edited 03-15-2000).]

[Guest Zulu1]

Why should anyone who put in their order early be agravated?

Early order meant Poster bonus for US customers.

Early order meant price break for Cretien critters.

Early order = shipping asap after its ready.

Cost to me = $0 cause BTS isn't charging till it's shipped.

Sounds like a good deal to me.

[iggi]

It's obvious that Davedial has a marketing perspective. Thier goal is to make as much money from the product as fast as possible.

If taking time to produce a quality product reduces profit, your average marketer then can't understand the reason for the effort.

[Compassion]

I think that BTS is in danger of causing Marketing weenies who think that product should be shoveled out the door to disappear from the PC gaming scene within the next 5 years.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Uggh I think yha hit the nail on head Beavis -- well said

[Username]

Let me put it this way. In the world of grown ups who do business. You never extend payment for product that doesnt have a lead time.

I would never give out my credit card information till I got a "allow X to Y time units to recieve" beforehand. That of course is my opinion and not to be confused with advice for anyone else.

Now if I were running a business and people were "fronting" me permission to ship and charge when I saw fit .. and alot of these people were in other countries... what would I do??? If I saw enough guaranteed business, I just might take my time.

Sorry guys, I am a customer just like every one of you. I don't need any posters or slicer-dicers. I will wait till the product is ready and all the bugs are reported back from the customers with pre-orders.

Lewis

[Pirate]

Wow, what a thread.

PC gaming is anything but dead. It is yet to be proven if anyone can make a real living selling games on the internet. I hope it works for two reasons.

First, there are so many good games out there that never get published. Publisher marketing types kill more good games and push bad games out the door before they are doneat an allarming rate. (Yes, I am in the game biz, I know this to be fact as all of you do) The worst part is that so many good games never get published.

Second is that if companies like BTS and Firaxis succed in internet marketing more companies will start the practic, and more of the small audiance games like CM will be available to the internet public.

I do know, as MajorH can tell you is that the only other company that tried this kind of approach that I know of was Arsenal Publishing. They were ahead of their time in the self marketed game idea. They died a horrible death. Why? Because the internet was still very young then. It has grow, the market has grown for this kind of marketing, and I hope that BTS can be one of the first small companies to lead the way to better games and more games in general.

Thanks for reading my post.

[CEO]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

Wow I could just NUKE the entire world and dominate the global market of PEACE!

Madmatt...

MISSION STATEMENT: BITE ME

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you ever hang out with a DR. Strangelove?

[Simon Fox]

I give Davidial credit for sticking his neck out and stating his opinions however perplexing they might be to those with a more balanced view of the world. The length of his post and his effort to explain himself suggest to me that he is not some agent provocateur stirring up the hornets nest I am sure 1 paragraph could have acheived the same. I have been deeply offended by the excessive use of obscene language in this thread ie "marketing" "MBA"

The bane of any high technology industry are people whose primary qualification is non-technical (ie m*******g, accountants and lawyers ) because they have such a narrow perspective that it results in considerable intraorganisational tension. It doesn't help that they are often better renumerated than technical staff resulting in resentment in the latter and insecurity in themselves. A lot of the crap they spout can be ascribed to this fundamental insecurity since they find it necessary to to overemphasise their importance. Don't get me wrong, I think these skills are very important, a lot of great products have foundered because they weren't applied. But personally I have found the one dimensional approach totally inadequate to the task. By far the easiest person to work with IMO is someone with a primary technical qualification and a postgraduate or second degree in the business/law area because these people have a more balanced perspective and are likely to be much more constructive. Sure there are exceptions but unfortunately they are just that.

[Guest Madmatt]

I have no idea what the message directly above this one was getting at?!?

Please God, someone to decipher for this NON-Postgraduate-blabla bla bla...

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

combathq.thegamers.net

[Simon Fox]

I confused MadMatt woohoo!

On second thoughts maybe that's not such an accomplishment

Oh and those banner ads still suck

[This message has been edited by Simon Fox (edited 03-15-2000).]

[Guest Madmatt]

Yes, they do!

And hey college boy!!! There ain't no second capital letter in Madmatt...Just run um all together, nice and easy like!

Madmatt

Imagine the ego if I had TWO capital letters in my name!

------------------

If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

combathq.thegamers.net

[Richard III]

Ok I cleared up Simon's post by translating it into Portugese and back again. It make sense now!

I give the credit of Davidial to pierce its throat I am and to

indicate its opinions however perplexing that they could more have

been to those with a balanced sight of the world. The size of its

post and its effort to justify suggests me that she is not some agent

who provocateur that it agitates above of the Hornets me nestles is

certain that 1 paragraph could have acheived the same. ** teams-out

** I deep t est offended extreme use obscene language this string IE "

marketing " " mba " banishes some high technology industry est person

whose preliminary nontechnical qualification est (IE m*******g,

accountant and lawyer) because t such a strait perspective that result

considerable intraorganisational tension. Not aid that is frequent

better renumerated of that the team of employees technique having for

result resentment in the last e in insecurity nse that. A.lot of crap

that they gush out can be attributed to this insecurity basic since

that they find necessary to emphasize its importance demasiadamente.

Me the error does not start, me thinks that these abilities are very

important, a.lot of great products foundered because they had not been

applied. But personally I found to total inadequate a dimensional

approach to the task. ** distant teams-out ** easy person for trabalh

with IMO est somebody with a preliminary technician qualification and

one postgraduate or as degree business/law area because this person t

probable one more balanced perspective and est for est much more

constructive. Certain it has exceptions but unhappyly they are right

that.

[CEO]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

I have no idea what the message directly above this one was getting at?!?

Please God, someone to decipher for this NON-Postgraduate-blabla bla bla...

Madmatt

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm so disappointed in you Madmatt

You have never seen the classic end of the world Stanley Kubrick classic Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb? Dr. Strangelove is the crazy (mad) ex-Nazi scientist who is an "expert" about US atomic weapons, blah, blah, blah. Go rent it and laugh.

Doesn't ANYONE remember this movie? You know, in the end, the B-52 pilot is riding the nuke waving his cowboy hat? Anyone, Bueller, Bueller? Hello?

[sbg2112]

Wait a minute, everyone.

I believe that Mr. Marketing's observations are very important in that they force us to consider the question of when CM should ship.....

However, Mr. Marketing's answer is "yesterday", supposedly because technology is a-changin'.

I'd like to offer a rebuttal to that: I do not see how shipping CM is in anyone'sbest interest BEFORE it leverages the stuff at www.digiscents.com. I mean, they have an SDK, so this stuff is like here today, and who doesn't want the smell of cordite wafting thru their computer room?

No, to ship without this would be to completely fail to realize the vision BTS had for CM. In a sense, Mr. Marketing is right because digiscents changes the very definition of what a game should be right now, so CM has already missed the boat. Guess BTS should just skip CM1 and go directly to CM2.

(Yeah, I knew it was a troll, that's why I responded this way. Does that mean I've taken the bait?)

[Guest Madmatt]

Please...Me NOT know a movie line or scene!?!

Highlights of said CLASSIC:

Mein Fuhrer! I can walk!!!

Billboard riddled with bullets reads SAC logo: PEACE IS OUR PROFESSION

...Preserve our precious boldily...fluids.

1 stick of chewing gum, 3 nylon stocking, 4 packs of profalactives..Hmmm Fella could have a pretty good time in Vegas with all this stuff!

You can't fight here! This is the WAR ROOM!

I saw it! I saw it with my own eyes!

Look at the BIG BOARD!!!

QUESTION: Anyone recognize the Bombardier?!? Thats right Mr. Voice of Vader himself James Earl Jones!

Geez...A movie that as its end credits is photoage of every Nuclear detonantion known to man and you honestly thought i HAD'NT SEEN IT!!!????!!!??? I am revoking your Sycophant status!!!!

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

combathq.thegamers.net

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 03-15-2000).]

[FEBA]

Davedial wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Help the developers help themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did. I sent in my pre-order. I hope that lets Steve and Charles spend the time to do CM right knowing that there is support out here for their way.

Davedial, please don't be a hypocrite, follow your own advice:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Start turning your back on this forum, start leaving... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW, my shirt color is true blue.