To Grid or Not to Grid! Discuss this inside.....

[Guest Madmatt]

Ok, the grid terrain was up a whopping 4 seconds before the first debate between me and Mr. Poopoo err I mean RUNE started up.

Pros:

MUCH greater ability to distinguish Elevations on the maps.

Enhanced Situational Environment Awareness. Easier to see dips and shallow depressions where you can hide men and vehicles.

Much easier to atain Hull Down position with armor

No need to to always drop down into level 1 and 2 to scout terrain.

It just looks COOL

CONS:

Too MUCH info possibly.

Range to hiddden targets is easily determined by grid lines.

Maybe an unfair advantage in multiplay if one side uses and the other doesnt.

Looks like a giant football field.

So, what does everyone think? I am sure this thread will begin to fill up quickly so please remember to try and stay civil but we are interested on your opinions on this.

Do you think its gamey or does it enhance the game for you? Let us know!!!

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[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 07-21-2000).]

[SF]

I personally would never use a 'grid' if it was an option, prefer the 'table top' feel that CM offers as is.

[Hunter]

Matt,

It certainly enhances tactical viewing of the terrain.

Let me be the first of many to annoyingly point out that the way this really should be implemented is as a toggle, so that you can use it to move around during orders, but then turn it off when the movies play.

I don't think I would use it in the current incarnation, as it would spoil the look of the movie playback for me?

Bruce

[Milt Smegma]

I don't have the full version but I still don't think I will be downloading the grid as the cons outweigh the pros(for me anyway)

It does seem gamey and will detract from the all important "feel"

But it is cool hats off to its creator

[Lorak]

Just my .02

I haven't downloaded the files yet. So I'm going by the screenshots.

Pro: makes it easy to see elevations and dips when using mod grass textures.

Cons: It could be unfair to those that don't have it. You can't turn it off.

As for gamey? I really don't think so. You can see the outlines on the original grass textures that ship with the game. That was why you got the complaints for the new hi-res grass textures. We couldn't see the lines (edges) anymore. I look at it more is highlighting the edges that were already there to begin with.

As for people counting tiles to get range? well.. this was already discussed in threads months ago. It seemed to be the general concensious that people were doing this to some point or another. I think people use the LOS tool more for this anyway. In the end you learn to judge range by sight pretty easy anyway, just by playing.

Just my thoughts.

Lorak

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"someone you trust is one of us"..........the illuminati

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[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

I feel as if the whole world has turned upside-down. While you guys are at it, could you just make the lines hex-shaped, and complete our return to the stone ages?

I maintain a live and let live attitude over it, but the grid concept just doesn't appeal to me. Yes, it would improve visual interpretation of the terrain. Hell, I bet the Allied command would have liked Europe to have a grid on it, but they just had to deal with that scary hazy horizon, and that's what I wanna do to...

"Real Men play Ironman CM"

[Joe Shaw]

There seem to be two camps forming on this issue, the esthetic camp and the gamey camp.

The esthetic issue, IMO, is up to the individual. If they like/want the grid they can use it. I would want to see it "in action" and make the determination of whether it's game benefits outweighed the ohmygawd "hex" feeling I would have looking at it.

I don't see how the gamey issue comes into play. Okay, if my opponent uses it and I don't he might get a slight leg up because of improved situational awareness. But I can still get down and dirty in the "1" view and see what I need to see. The "ranging" issue is a non-starter from what I can see. If you really want to check the range, just use the LOS tool, you can go anywhere on the map that way.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Shaw (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Milt Smegma]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*:

... Hell, I bet the Allied command would have liked Europe to have a grid on it, but they just had to deal with that scary hazy horizon, and that's what I wanna do to...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hear that Cap'n

Also we now have a tool that CAN give one side an unfair advantage in PBEM

...you'll just never know ..."how is he getting all those perfect hull-downs?...he must be gridded!..."

[pathfinder]

hmmm...guess I go with foobar here...

I don't exactly see hexes in mah front yard, so I'd rather not see them in CM...but

if it were implemented, how about a toggle on/off?

just ma 2 sents

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unca pathy will show ya the path,

if only he could find it himself!

[iggi]

I think the grid is a good idea. I was experimenting with that on my own anyways.

[DaveT]

iggi,

Good, because I am downloading it right now.

Dave

[Lorak]

All I'm saying is this. You can see the edges in the original tiles anyway. All this does is highlight them.

Look at the hill in the following screenshot. The edges are already there.

I've not decided wheather or not to try them or not. But I think it is just a matter of what you like.

Especialy given the fact that lots of people who downloaded Matt's mod pack.

Have went back and installed the original grass textures.... WHY?

because they couldn't judge elevation anymore,

(the "gamey" edges that show up in the original textures aren't there.)

Lorak

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"someone you trust is one of us"..........the illuminati

*

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[This message has been edited by Lorak (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Guest KwazyDog]

*Too MUCH info possably*

Actually, iirc this is why Steve and Charles didnt do it a long time ago, becuase it wasnt the way they wanted it to be. I remember someone posting way back on it as an option (though it could have been in an email), and if I recall correctly Steves response was along those lines.

That being said though, I think its probably too late to go back anyways as its already out there like it or not Personally its not for me as I prefer the *movie* feel of CM, but each to their own.....

As for being togglable, I have discussed this with Charles. It will mean twice the VRAM needed for grass, or twice the pollies for terrain, depending on how it is done. Probably not something you will see in the near future would be my guess.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 07-21-2000).]

[TeAcH]

To grid or not to grid.

Hmm...Not to grid. Looks bad and is unrealistic.

TeAcH

[DaveT]

I like them the snow ones look good. And I'm DLing the grass now.If you like them use them if you don't don't

dave

[Pfalz XII]

I don't think gridlines are gamey or unrealistic. What IS unrealistic is trying to look at 3D terrain through a 2D computer monitor. Gridlines are simply a visual aid to assist the player in determining the lay of the land.

Golf sims frequently use gridlines for this very purpose.

[Jeff Heidman]

Pfalz, that is the best point someone has made in the entire thread.

It is like people in flight sims complaining that padlocking tools are unrealistic. Tell you what, give me a full sized wrap-around monitor with Mark I eyeball quality resolution, and I will not ask for a padlock in my flightsims, and I won't ask for a gridline in my Combat Missions!

Jeff Heidman

[pritzl]

Captain Foobar said it best. It's just one step closer to going back to the grids that we've all been so happy to get rid of. In addition, I too think it's gamey.

The grids...yuck. It'll ruin the sense of realism in any screenshots that use them too.

[mfred]

What next, first people want Hull down command added, now a grid!!!

Might as well take all the challenge out of the game. Maybe winning is everthing.

PBEM games will suffer, especially fog, or night games if both people are not using the grid.

The Grid would only be part realistic if a unit could see grid from camera 1.

My 2 cents worth.

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the snow ones look good<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, the snow ones are the most helpful and least obtrusive, IMO. I've always had trouble with judging elevations and undulations in snow scenarios. Thanks! A nice improvement.

- Chris

[Goanna]

Gents, lets not take all the beauty out of the dance of death.

Grids assist in making the game all about the numbers: how far, what angle, how deep. Aren't these all about your situational awareness on the battlefield, and sholdn't they be estimated at the time, with the toolds we all ready have in abundance?

I can accept that we should make improvements where they are realistic to the 3D engine (like not moving through the imaginary bocage when I am clearly not in it when I plan my move), but how does having a grid overlay add to my abilities in anything other than a gamey way?

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desert rat wannabe

[This message has been edited by Goanna (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Törni]

I thought the purpose of these grahic improvments and enchantments was to get closer to a natural feel. Needles to say what this grid thing does... You usually make mistakes estimating distances and elevation differences in the real world too. No grid at least here in Europe when I last checked out of the window! Will not ruin my gaming experience with this baby.

[mfred]

How about satelite imaging as well, and show the oppositions movement commands during turns.

This would help you to find ultimate positioning for the campers.

Bring on the the real soldiers, let the Gamers have thier grid. We will fight them anywhere, anyway.

[iggi]

I agree with Pfalz XII.

If the distance between grid lines is 20m, then putting 3 little dots along the grid line will create 4 little sections of 5m each.

Oh come on now you realism freaks. We're wargamers. Details like that gives us pleasure. Hell I've even been experimenting adding varying colors to the terrain levels to get that topographic feel.

In war you have to be inovative. We have to encourage it and not try to wave the realism arguement wand all the time.

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 07-21-2000).]

[iggi]

I downloaded it and it looks great.