Gregory Deych Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 You realize that 2 months from now we'll be hearing from the developers of SL: "It's the damn grognards that ruined our game! Wargames are dead! We'll be doing Deer Hunter IX from now on." And we'll say: "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted October 26, 2000 Share Posted October 26, 2000 Yep Four Stringer, I betcha lots of folks are thinking that, at least the one's who were bright enough to get CM thus far. I was just looking at the screen shots above, and noted the new modern revisionist version of history apparently taking place there. Ah, now I could be wrong (someone correct me if so), but were not the hmmm, African American Soldiers segregated in those days. I distinctly remember all black units commanded by white officers during WWII, and I believe it was not until the Korean War that integration began to take place. And that it was not until Vietnam that full integration on the battlefield was achieved. And to top it all off, the guy in the screen shot is reading a "Dear John", letter and I'm sure at least a few of us older gents remember that during the Second World War, the United States outlawed divorce proceedings of soldiers. I believe it was called the "Dear John" law or act? Now, I can forgive details like not plastering the Hakenkreuz all over the product to comply with European law, as long as there is a provision for realism by way of patch or mod, but what then do you do with modern revisionist versions of history? Is there going to be a patch whereby one can remove the minority soldiers? Or, seeing no female soldiers present in the screen shots, will they have a patch whereby one can convert some of the little fellers to females? Hmmm, interesting line of thought. Gives a whole new meaning to the AI label of "Lower Rear Hull Penetration" huh? Ofcourse, someone would need to do a mod to add unit insignia based upon the modern polically correct version of WWII. Maybe one of those circles with an arrow at 45% to the right for the fenders of the 43rd Female Tank Regiment (ever see a female tank?). Come to think of it the Ex could toss barbs like an 88 with uncanny accuracy. Well, it certainly is a sure fire warning of what may someday be accepted as truth when a few generations have passed on, and our Great-Great Grandchildren discuss WWII in their grade schools. "Yes Mr. Schwamburger, I know the answer. (Lucy raising her hand), The Second World War was started by Adolphersa Hitler, when she attacked the Polish Women's League of Voters, and the great Wilma Churchill rose to smite Aldolphersa by launching waves of British Spitfires at the Germanisses. As you know Mr. Schwamburger, Mz., Churchill was famous for her statement; "Never in the course of human documentation have so few mangled so much to mislead so many". And with that, I'll leave you to ponder the ridiculessness of our modern world. ------------------ "Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben" Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf") Bruno Weiss [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 10-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest olebooya Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Speaking of historical innacuracies.... I hear there is no SS in the game, wouldn't want to have our young people exposed to them. Why dont we just rewrite the history books and say WW II was about cheese or something and no one was really killed. Im not trying to idolize the SS, but people believe what they see and comp-ASL will probably be the most in-depth historical study of WW II that some people have. Lets keep our history accurate so we can learn from the past......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 How's that famous bit of wisdom go? "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted October 27, 2000 Author Share Posted October 27, 2000 Actually the screenshots posted are touched up. It does not even look that good during play. I like Falcon 4 a lot, I didn't like Hasbro for ulling the plug on the designers when they were making huge strides in stability. All of us would have bought a Falcon 5, but Hasbro (being the geniuses they think they are) said we're done with wargames. Funny thing about the Hasblo Squad Leader game is that they cannot blame Gronards for it doing bad. No one would have the patience to deal with such pathetic crap (unbelievably it is horrendously slow on an AMD 1 Gig machine).... not a gronard, and not a teenager. It's just plain awful programming. I am so thankful for Combat Mission. Thank you BTS! I only tried Squad Leader for a little variety. Just went to prove how lucky I feel to be a part of the Combat Mission phenom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 As one of those who predicted it would suck, I take no satisfaction in being right, and to those who said to give it a chance, well, it's had it's chance, the verdict is nigh unanimous, it sucks. ------------------ Pzvg "Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Just to clear up one little thing not about SL the game (which is hardly worth discussing). Black soldiers were segregated in World War Two, but the hug casualty rate for US infantry meant that in late 1944 a "5th Platoon" process was implemented where black soldiers were added in segregated platoons to most white divisions in Europe. Many division commanders promptly disolved the 5th platoons as a waste of manpower and used the soldiers to bring the regular TO and E up to snuff. From November on black soldiers were common in 9 divisions and occasional in another 8 divisions, plus a half a dozen black combat battalions which were attached as a whole to white divisions. In fact, Japanese and Chinese Americans were subject to far more harsh segregation at the end of World War Two than blacks. So -- a black soldier would be at best rare at the front, and if you were in some divisions, common. By Korea, black soldiers were integrated, by order of Truman, and served in increasing numbers in the US military until today when they are over-represented about 15% by population (ie. there are more blacks serving in the military than other ethnicities when measured against their presence in the population). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Thanks Slapdragon for that clarification. I was not sure of the exact figures, but was certain that it wasn't common to see blacks and whites mixed together, at least across the broad spectrum. It would have been much better on their part, to simply add all black units. But then again, I don't really know their (SL), interface well enough to speak in detail. And, don't care to find out. I'm just thankful for CM, and for the crew that brought it to us. "Yeah, and it came to pass that they would be sent to lead them from the wilderness." ------------------ "Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben" Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf") Bruno Weiss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: Just to clear up one little thing not about SL the game (which is hardly worth discussing). Black soldiers were segregated in World War Two, but the hug casualty rate for US infantry meant that in late 1944 a "5th Platoon" process was implemented where black soldiers were added in segregated platoons to most white divisions in Europe. Many division commanders promptly disolved the 5th platoons as a waste of manpower and used the soldiers to bring the regular TO and E up to snuff. From November on black soldiers were common in 9 divisions and occasional in another 8 divisions, plus a half a dozen black combat battalions which were attached as a whole to white divisions. In fact, Japanese and Chinese Americans were subject to far more harsh segregation at the end of World War Two than blacks. So -- a black soldier would be at best rare at the front, and if you were in some divisions, common. By Korea, black soldiers were integrated, by order of Truman, and served in increasing numbers in the US military until today when they are over-represented about 15% by population (ie. there are more blacks serving in the military than other ethnicities when measured against their presence in the population).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Slapdragon, as usual, demonstrating the informative power of this forum. I never heard anything about this. Thanks for the info, back to my Ostfront lessons. ------------------ Seen in the light of evolution, biology is, perhaps, intellectually the most satisfying and inspiring science. Without that light it becomes a pile of sundry facts—some of them interesting or curious but making no meaningful picture as a whole. -Theodosius Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Bruno and Four Stringer, Can't remember the whole history or chain of events but you might be interested to know that CM was actually going to be Computer Squad Leader at one time. Bigtime was developing it for Avalon Hill but broke away just before the Hasbro takeover. I believe thats it in a nut shell but its been awhile so the facts are getting a little fuzzy. All I can say is I'm glad it worked out as well as it did. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Smith Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Slapdragon- Could you post a reference for the '5th platoon' plans at the end of WWII? I have never heard of this-I would like to know more. I am surprised to learn of it-I have heard of blacks in the military at the time, but thought they were always in segregated units (typically officered by white officers). In the 5th platoon scheme, when the platoons were dissolved, did blacks serve in leadership positions within those integrated 8 or 9 divisions (I mean, were there black squad leaders, platoon sergeants, and first sergeants over white subordinates?). If so, I am curious how this 'battlefield integration' went. Which divisions were they-you suggest a total of 17 divisions were eventually at least partially integrated-almost 25% of the total army-again, it is surprising that it is not more well known. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 Its so sad to see a past giant of a company like Microprose pulled down into the abyss of crap that is Hasbro. Luckily we have CM. Shall we observe a few minutes of silence for the death of a great company like Microprose and all its past glories? ------------------ "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patboivin Posted October 27, 2000 Share Posted October 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rod: Bruno and Four Stringer, [...] Bigtime was developing it for Avalon Hill but broke away just before the Hasbro takeover. [...] Rod<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Talk about in the nick of time! Hmm I wonder what CM would have looked like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dervulf Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 I have always been under the impression that CM actually was ASL only with the name changed cuz of the split with AH. Am i wrong? ------------------ Listen to your doubt. What we so proudly hail Once you provoke her. Rattling of her tail. Never begins it. Never for once engaged. Never Surrender. Showing the pain of rage. So dont tread on me -Metallica- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 {clears throat} Liberty or death, what we so proudly hail Once you provoke her, rattling of her tail Never begins it, never, but once engaged... Never surrenders, showing the fangs of rage {bows} Thank you, thank you. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dervulf Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 Hmmm........ {clears ears and gives another listen} by golly your right. i stand corrected thats what i get for loosing the inner sleeve. ------------------ Liberty or death. What we so proudly hail Once you provoke her. Rattling of her tail. Never begins it. Never but once engaged. Never Surrenders. Showing the fangs of rage. So dont tread on me -Metallica- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jpinard: To the guy who stated not to blow $45... I have a great deal with Electronics Boutique here. I buy tons of games and they let me bring anything back. No worries about purchases is nice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually EB has a no questions asked return policy for everyone. Thank God as I buy anywhere from 3-5 games per month from them Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 Steve, many second World War references published in the last 8-10 years now have this in it, but I can give you some references The first was the 1952 book "Eleanor Roosevelt's Niggers" which is unfortunately very very hard to find since its title caused it to be removed and destroyed by well meaning librarians. This book is by David J. Williams, who served with the 761st Tank Battalion. References to the 5th Platoon also exist in Seven-Six-One and "Black Liberators of the Holocaust", although for various reasons Seven-Six-One is not a good source and Liberators took lots of liberties with the truth and by connection is a poor documentary source. After you get through these sources, you are left with diving into primary source material which is tougher. During the Battle of the Bulge, one of the units which were trapped with Taylor's Airborne soldiers was the 969th Artillery, which fough side by side with airborne soldiers for the entire seige. No where in 5 books on Bulge were 969 is mentioned is it apparent that the unit was black, but they were. Black soldiers were not "suppose" to fight with white, and black officers were not suppose to command white soldiers, but it happened enough that letters to Stars and Stripes and Yank Magazine of Black soldiers complaining about state side treatment sent up a howl by US servicemen who were fighting in Europe that can be read today (for example the March, 1945 Yank) White soldiers liked there black counterparts, usually respected black officers (as much as any officer gets respect that is) and defended them in print. So what you have is a practice that was forbidden but that occured (how often is anyone's guess). If I can find anymore stuff in popular books I will let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 Oh yeah -- the numbers involved also were not that huge. Maybe 6000 soldiers in 5th platoon, and 16000 black soldiers in independent battalions (the 2 blacxk Infantry Divisions 92st and 91st never deployed and the 2 black calvary divisions were disbanded in North Africa.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinard Posted October 28, 2000 Author Share Posted October 28, 2000 I'm curious if anyone else tried SL? Once again, it was so bad (and poorly programmed( I just don't know how they could have released it. I think Paintbrawl 3 was probably a better game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trooper: Actually, I was rather impressed by Falcon 4. Then again, I tend not to play flight sims that much.. Considering I started out with Tomahawk for the Spectrum 48K. (four colors, wire-frame graphics...).. And the 'Viewlock' decoder system. -That- was a joy... NTM <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> WOW I never thought I will see another player of Tomahawk. Did you know you can download it for free right now together with spectrum emulator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon: During the Battle of the Bulge, one of the units which were trapped with Taylor's Airborne soldiers was the 969th Artillery, which fough side by side with airborne soldiers for the entire seige. No where in 5 books on Bulge were 969 is mentioned is it apparent that the unit was black, but they were. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The 969th, recieved an citation from the 101st Airborne's, Gen Maxwell Taylor & Distinguished Unit Citation, from Patton on Feb 7 1945 as well. You can read of some of these mens exploits in Parker's Battle of the Bulge along with some photo's etc. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted October 28, 2000 Share Posted October 28, 2000 A mistake on my part -- segregragted black units did fight initially in Korea -- the first unit to win a "victory" during the initial UN retreat was a US black 24 RCT. [This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 10-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutbolHead Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 Well, after buying Squad Leader, playing it, and returning it, I must say I'm dissappointed as well. I did not have the high expectations that others had because of the name association, but I did hope it would be at least a better version "Soldiers at War". It's not even that in my opinion. I know I staunchly defended Hasbro's right to produce what they wished with the name they legally purchased, and I still stand by that principle. But as many of you predicted, they failed miserably with this product and will no doubt take an economic hit for it as is how the market is supposed to work. Bombs away on me if you like, but I'm straight up enough to come in here and own up to what I said. Later.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted October 29, 2000 Share Posted October 29, 2000 No shame Futbolhead, This is a case where I wish I had been wrong. You based your defense of Hasbro on principle, I based my attacks on them on experience, and unfortunately, I was right, which means I didn't win, and neither did anyone else. ------------------ Pzvg "Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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