Wow, Squad Leader is amazingly horrible...

[chasd]

Bad letters from home make your soldiers poor fighters? HUMUNGUS PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKE.

Loos more like 'The Sims' with guns.

[jpinard]

Anyone else tried it? I sent a note to Hasblo(a negative note), they did not respond.

I convinced the guys here at EB to dissuade people from purchaseing it, and they may pull it off the shelves.

[Turret Ring]

You guys have me all shook-up now. I've been eagerly awaiting Mech Warrior 4 because I loved Mech Warrior 3 so much. Microprose developed MW3 before Hasbro sucked them up (I believe....) What if Hasbro as messed-up MW4?

------------------

"Then we shall fight in the shade." (Greek general's comment upon being told that the Persian archers could blot-out the sun with their arrows.)

[GriffinCheng+]

Correct up if I am wrong. IIRC, black soliders were used to fill up roles on logistics and support, no much front line actions. Black units involved in Bulge fightings were mainly due to the fact that the area were supposed to be real area!

A counter example would be the infamous "Tuskegee Airmen" flying red-tailed P-51s. They really proved themselves of capable hands.

Griffin.

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"+" is just the beginning. Expect to see "GriffinCheng76", "GriffinCheng(105)" or "GriffinChengA3E8" more should Forum problems occur again

[Mord]

A point that I have yet to be seen made here is why don't computer game companies make games for computer gamers? The fans know what they want. From an FPS guy to RPG gal to wargamers, we know what we like. Why don't they cater to that. Instead of looking to stock Walmart shelves with next week's bargin bin ooze.

I have been disapointed soooo many times by hyped up screen shots and "Our game is gonna be this and our game is gonna do that" Computer companies have to do two things: Lose the hype and TAKE THEIR TIME and make a quality product. I don't mind waiting if I know that when I get that special game that has taken a year longer than expected that it will be great. So I had to wait...much better than dropping forty bucks on another turd that doubles as a combo frisbee/coaster.

Some of these games are so HYPED up that alot of times they could never in a million years stand up to what they have touted. If they pocketed the money they spend on advertising and put it into the game maybe there wouldn't be so much crap takin' up space at EB or Babbages or what have you.

the splash screen for Combat Mission alone is worth a thousand copies of Diakatana! And they HYPED that regurgitated snotball for 2 years or so!!

Luckily for us there are still some companies out there that care about the gamer and in turn are gamers themselves, so they know how the other half lives. Thanks BTS for not giving us a hyped up bowl of cat vomit. you guys Rock!

Mord

[Slapdragon]

Sorry Griffin, you are right and wrong. Tens of thousands of black soldiers worked in logistics, the "Red Ball Express" was a set of black transport battalions. But, the US Army in Europe had group of independent black battalions, 3 very good ones noted for valor and one which ran away three times in battle. The US Army though lost so many soldiers that by November 1944 a call for volunteers was sent out to put black platoons into white units, a call that was increased after Bulge. It worked so well that by March 1945 some divisions had unofficially just abolished these "5th Platoons".

Of course, lots of interesting groups fough in WW2. Few people realize that a Division of Brazillian troops fought in Italy, and there could have been 3 Divisions. I only know that because one of them was my Wife's Grandfather Joao Oliveira.

[Daveman]

Saw this one just yesterday... for $49.99!! Can't wait to see this one plummet!

------------------

"Whenever a mission ends and I still have a member of the red team standing, I have to ask myself: did I do enough to ensure my own safety?" - Old Man Murray review on SWAT3

[Bruno Weiss]

Now Mord, don't hold back just say what you mean.

Well I couldn't agree with you more. It's a classic example of "know what your doing, before you do it", or "do one thing, do it well". These big companies (among other things), are directed by silk tie executives who wouldn't know a computer game if they sat on one. They know Wall Street, and that is all they are interested in. So they attempt to apply their financial bottom line philosophies without the slightest knowledge of what it is their company is producing or who they are producing it for.

Enter BTS. Precisely why BTS has shook things up. They've been successful because they thought out of the box, applied the aspects of electronic commerce, were gamers to begin with and therefore knew "what they were writing about", and knew who they were producing their product for. On top of that, they ask the gamers what it is they want, and they then take that input and use it.

Imagine for a moment, what your flight to Las Vegas would be like if the pilot didn't know how to fly? Well, now you have an idea of why a good number of the big games companies are falling on their face. Silk ties, and a subscription to the Wall Street Journal do not equate to product knowledge or customer satisfaction. The old standby companies (Hasbro, Mattel), are scarfing up some of the historical "big" PC game companies because they failed to do what BTS is doing. I would speculate that the Hasbro's and Mattel's will most likely dump them soon enough (tiring of subsidizing their losses), and go back to their own tried and true market niches, Monopoly and Scrabble. Ultimately though, this is not necessarily to our advantage. Unless, the simple yet amazing BTS philosophy catches on and the lemmings stop their charge over the cliff.

There are of course, other complicated issues, but it really does come down to management, and the management of these bigger PC game companies was primarily based upon "grab the money and run" philosophies. The crows are now coming home to roost! They sowed the wind, they are now reaping the whirlwind.

A quite natural evolutionary process of some folks having to learn the hard way. Happens all the time.

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 10-31-2000).]

[M Hofbauer]

Bruno Weiss,

black officers were common up to captain level. I have pictures here in a friend's book that show black LT's and CPT's.

"Correct up if I am wrong. IIRC, black soliders were used to fill up roles on logistics and

support, no much front line actions. Black units involved in Bulge fightings were mainly due

to the fact that the area were supposed to be real area!"

that is incorrect. Black soldiers _did_ serve in quartermaster etc. units, but they also served in frontline inf and armor units, both in all-black battalions and - later - as part of the troop makeup of units.

Slapdragon is right in that in late 44 the necessity killed the segregation in many units. Pictures of black and white american infantrymen serving alongside each other are from that time.

------------------

"Hope that clears up all questions and concernas about the optional Rarity optional options at the players option to optionally use, optionally, in a game." (Steve/BTS)

[Stephen Smith]

Hofbauer and Slapdragon-

I remain skeptical as to your claim that blacks served in any appreciable numbers in combat units during WWII. It is well known that blacks served in quartermaster units and transportation (like the redball express), and that there was one black armored battalion (there is a book about it). But I had never heard of the 5th platoon, and have never seen pictures of blacks and whites fighting alongside each other (I have seen pictures of the two races fighting alongside each other during the Korean War-when integration was ordered by Truman). Black officers, of course, existed. But I am sure they were generally in the same quartermaster/transportation branches. I also accept that a black artillery unit, trapped in the Bastogne encirclement, fought alongside the 101st airborne-but again, that wasn't planned, but rather a result of the surprise attack.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong. That is why I asked for references from Slapdragon. He really didn't provide them-a reference to a surrounded artillery bn in Bastogne, and reference to a book that has been removed from libraries. Where can I learn about the 5th platoon system? How widespread is it? Where could I see pictures of black and white combat soldiers fighting alongside each other? As I said, prove me to be mistaken, and I would be happy to revise my opinion.

Steve

[Bruno Weiss]

I did not say that black officers did not exist, what I said was;

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I distinctly remember all black units commanded by white officers during WWII, and I believe it was not until the Korean War that integration began to take place. And that it was not until Vietnam that full integration on the battlefield was achieved.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing in that statement says that there were no black officers. There are command grades above Lt., and Capt. And, while I'm sure there are instances of blacks being pressed into service alongside whites, particularly in the Bulge area during an emergency, that does not mean that it was as an organizational practice.

As Stephen points out, nothing of evidence has thus far been provided as was asked, to contradict the normally accepted version of history that is well established that in point of fact, a practice of segregation took place until the Korean War. Again, I would caution that a photo here, or a letter there, (whatever the subject), does not necessarily constitute a license to undertake the rewriting of history. Very

ill-advised, however recently popular it might be to do so. Which was my point in the first place. If we are onto uncovering a major misunderstanding of the Second World War, then I'm all for it, but first, as Stephen pointed out. We gotta prove it.

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 10-31-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stephen Smith:

Hofbauer and Slapdragon-

I remain skeptical as to your claim that blacks served in any appreciable numbers in combat units during WWII. It is well known that blacks served in quartermaster units and transportation (like the redball express), and that there was one black armored battalion (there is a book about it). But I had never heard of the 5th platoon, and have never seen pictures of blacks and whites fighting alongside each other (I have seen pictures of the two races fighting alongside each other during the Korean War-when integration was ordered by Truman).

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

*By the fall of 1944, the manpower cupboard of the American army was almost totaly bare. The U.S. Army had been reduced to "stripping" existing U.S. divisions awaiting shipment to Europe in order to obtain rifle replacements. At the same time that the Supreme Commander desperately needed combat infantrymen, Eisenhower was unable to tap the large reserve of "colored" servicemen.

The U.S. Army of 1944 was still strapped with a policy of racial segregation. Ike weighed a proposal to offer blacks, serving in segregated service battalions, the opportunity to volunteer for front line combat duty, a course which he approved.

However, both Maj. Gen. Bedell Smith, Eisenhower's chief of staff and Gen. John C. H. Lee in charge of supply and the communication zone, disapproved of such a radical plan. Faced with a potential flap, their boss acquiesced. To prevent further embarrassment Eisenhower decreed, that all available black volunteers continue to go to the existing black combat battalions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*See: Parker Danny S. Battle of the Bulge p.215

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Johnno]

Well guys have you seen the screenshots on page 1 of this thread? If I never knew much about games I would certainly buy it with high expectations for fun and gameplay. I do know better though. Hasbin sucks!!! I have the right to say this because of the money I have wasted on their products. However, anyone that truly loves games should research the product before the purchase as I do. Demos are a must!

I bought Chaos Gate, wh40k, played it even made a fan website for it. That game, although I had lots of gameplay was full of bugs and never fully delivered what was promised. In fact the multiplayer was supposed to implement vehicles (even had a button for it) but never did come. I tried to play Soldiers at War but that demo wouldn't even work on my machine. Other products I have tried from them only seem to want the fast buck and are quite ordinary and buggy products.

I bought Majesty and Roller Coaster Tycoon, MechWarrior3 however, both Hasbin products and strangely enough, these products are great. I mean both of these products are high fun, almost bug-less and have been good if not great products (both thumbs up.)

I have proof-read my reply so far and realize I'm rambling and may have even lost what point I tried to make. (snicker)

Really all I'm getting at is to research before you buy, demo is a must. In my experiences with Hasbro, I'd have to assume they try and catch you with your pants down by cashing in on your greatest game loves. ie, Squad Leader, Risk, Axis and Allies, Chaos Gate (40k), Civilization:Test of Time and others. If you got to Hasbro.com right now, check the link bar on the right. It has about 30 top names that someone would be interested about i.e.. Barbie, Batman, Furby, Avalon Hill G.I.Joe. Goes to show you that they using the names to catch you, and they usually do. That's why I bought Risk, Monopoly, Axis and Allies and Chaos Gate without a Demo. I played them, had fun and they were alright but were far from bugl less and were substandard products.

Sid Meir and many others who helped create games that we loved back in the earlier days have gone off to make there own Niche companies. (Firaxis, Poptop and Lionhead) It is important to watch them.

Summarize: Game Developers make great games, Game producers suck, game developers under an umbrella of a large company are always to be wary of. Small or Niche companies try harder and have a greater possibility of pleasing you the consumer; as you really are there life blood.

Johnno out

-My 3 cents (Q:why the extra penny? A:You disserve it for putting up with my ramblings)

[M Hofbauer]

Steve -

I can be nitpicky too. I never claimed they served in "appreciable numbers", because it would be a very subjective thing as to what an "appreciable number" would be. All I said was that blacks _did_ serve in combat units. just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You haven't seen my refrigerator but I can assure you it exists. I have a picture here showing black and white replacements being instructed by their white Lieutenant.

Bruno Weiss, I never said that it was "organizational practice", please define that. What I said was that it happened towards the end of the war that former all-white units then got black replacements resulting in mixed units. Call that organizational practice or not, maybe on a higher level it wasn't, but on the lower level it was not uncommon.

I will be posting pictures, maybe tomorrow, mabye later, I have to go through the hassle of scanning them, only to have Bruno Weiss argue in effect that "nobody came up with evidence yet, and if they do, I'll disregard it as being only anecdotal and not conclusive". Great. How can you counter such an attitude?

oh well, until later when I have them pictures done...

------------------

"Hope that clears up all questions and concernas about the optional Rarity optional options at the players option to optionally use, optionally, in a game." (Steve/BTS)

[Slapdragon]

Well, first I was looking for an easy to find reference for Stephen, but instead of waiting for me to find him an easy to find one he decide to shoot off without any facts. That is cool though: Here is a list that includes both primary and secondary sources. Your ability to track these down or not is none of my affair though.

Ansel, (Colonel) Raymond. (1990). From Segregation to Desegregation: Blacks In the U.S. Army 1703-1954. (Thesis), U.S. Army War College, Carlisle.

Brown, Robert A. (1981). Oral History Interview, October 28. Moorland-Springarn Research Center, Howard University.

Buchanan, A. Russell. (1977). Black Americans in World War II. ABC-CLIO.

Byers, Jean. (1947). A Study of the Negro in Military Service. Department of the Navy.

Bykofsky, Joseph and Harold Larson. (1957). The Transportation Corps, Operations Overeas: The United States Army In World War II. U.S. Government Printing Office.

Cooney, H.A. (1945). Memorandum for General White dated January 1, 1945 and February 28, 1945. G-1 Personnel, Entry - 43, 291.2 (Colored Troops), (Record Group 165), Records of the Military Intelligence Division, National Archives National Records Center. (I DO NOT HAVE A COPY OF THIS, AND HAVE ONLY BEEN READ IT!!!)

Donaldson, Gary A. (1991). The History of African-Americans in the Military. Krieger Publishing Co.

Motley, Mary P. (1975) The Invisible Soldier: The Experience of the Black Soldier in World War II. Wayne State University Press. (I LIKE THIS ONE A GREAT DEAL, AND NOTE THE TITLE AS COMPARED TO THE DISCUSSION ON THIS LIST).

Mullen, Robert F. (1974) Blacks in America’s Wars: The Shift in Attitudes from the Revolutionary War to Vietnam. Monad Press.

Palmer, Robert R., Bell I. Wiley, and William R. Keast. (1948). The Procurement and Training of Ground Combat Troops. United States Army in World War II, Army Ground Forces Series, Historical Division, Department of the Army.

Potter, Lou, William Miles and Nina Rosenblum. (1992). Liberators: fighting on two fronts in World War II. Harcourt, Brace, and Jovanovich. BE CAREFUL WITH THIS ONE -- IT HAS LOTS OF INACCURACIES IN ONE SECTION.

Reddick, L.D. (1949). The Negro Policy of the United States Army, 1775-1945. Journal of Negro History 34:9-29.

Rose, Arnold M 1947 Army Policies Toward Negro Soldiers--A Report on a Success and a Failure. Journal of Social Issues (Fall) 3:26-31

[jdmorse]

There were some comments in a previous thread about how Hasbro was marketing SL. This is from their web page:It is found by a link labeled History of the Squad Leader Game <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The SQUAD LEADER PC experience is founded on an innovative and engagingboard game by Avalon Hill that has developed a loyal following over the last 23 years. SQUAD LEADER was originally published in 1977 as a two-player board game using printed mapboards and counters to simulate World War II squad-level combat. Players could command either United States, German or Russian forces.The original game quickly became a classic, yet avid players demanded moreand more detail. ADVANCED SQUAD LEADER was developed in 1985 to provide this additional detail as well as expand the SQUAD LEADER experience. ASL isnow the premiere tactical board game on the market, and every major and minor World War II combatant is depicted. Historical expansion sets have provided the

ASL player with the penultimate experience of depicting tactical combat on historical maps using historical forces. From the rubble of Stalingrad to the U.S. Marine landings at Tarawa, ASL uniquely combines soundness of design with attention to detail and ease of play. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It is clear that they are intentionally trying to use the past reputation of SL as a hook to convince people that they should buy it....pathetic (yes I know it is marketing)

JD

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Official 3000th poster to the original Peng thread and present at it's demise

[jdmorse]

Oh yes and the differences....... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Squad Leader for the PC and the Advanced Squad Leader board gameshare some things in common, but they also have some key differences. Here is a quick overview of these two products.

Similarities

Both Squad Leader games are turn based tactical level combat simulations allowing the player to think about their actions before committing them to battle. Both games simulate the sense of fate that has the soldiers in its grasp. An accurately thrown grenade or a well-timed artillery strike can turn certain defeat into victory and vice versa. Both games simulate the ferocity of house to house fighting. Once the scenario builder is active, both games allow the player to design their own battles. The player can make their own maps and then fight over the ground that they have created. Opportunity fire can ruin an attack before it really gets going!

Differences

Squad Leader, the computer game, allows soldiers to learn and become better as they struggle from mission to mission. Squad Leader, the computer game, allows the player to customize their soldiers' equipment. Should you equip for short-range automatic weapon firefights or long range sniping? You decide. In Squad Leader, the computer game, soldiers have identities. They have a past, a present and (hopefully) a future. Squad Leader, the computer game, allows the player to play against the computer AI.

Why did Hasbro Interactive change the game?

We wanted to bring the game of the '70s and '80s into the next millennium,to take the best ideas from the board game and incorporate it into a new format and give fans and newcomers alike a new experience. Just asSquad Leader led to Advanced Squad Leader, Advanced Squad Leaderled to Squad Leader, the computer game. The most obvious change we made was to give the game's characters some personality and to make the player feel more attached to his unit. In the end, we hope you try and enjoy both of these great games. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Shameful, esp the last paragraph.....as they say, you decide.

JD

[Bruno Weiss]

Well Hofbauer, that is what the topic was mainly about. I can't help it if you got off topic. The issue was, was it a common practice or not. Read back. It started over the pictures of SL mixing black troops with white. From there, it went into the commonality of the practice. You are the one that chose to assert somehow, that it was said there were no black officers. No one ever said any such thing. Only thing I can think of is your trying to proved something no one has yet to question?

You can post all the pictures of black officers you like, no one questioned their existence in the first place. What was questioned was how common was it for whites and blacks to serve side by side in front line combat units. That is where the discussion went. Can't help it if you went somewhere else.

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 10-31-2000).]

[M Hofbauer]

well ok I somehow got the impression that you suggested the officers commanding the black soldiers were all white, which would in turn suggest that there were no black officers.

so, if it is consensus here that there were black combat soldiers, fighting under black officers and sometimes alongside whites in mixed units (not as a rule but happening) then indeed I was trying to prove something that wasn't challenged but unanimous opinion. My fault, I am reading these things under a time restriction and therefore lately don't always apply due diligence when reading through these posts.

btw don't get me wrong on the other issues, I completely agree with you w/r/t the "silktie-incompetence" and your critique of the p.c. "hollywodod minority quota" approach of Hasbro in PC SL (confer with my former statements on this in the earlier thread on PC SL that covered exactly the same topic of minorities).

sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

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"Hope that clears up all questions and concernas about the optional Rarity optional options at the players option to optionally use, optionally, in a game." (Steve/BTS)

[Bruno Weiss]

Same here Hofbauer, I think we all sort of got tangled up in different aspects of the general topic, which originally was a criticism of SL. However, I must confess that Slapdragon hit upon, at least indirectly, a point of mine which I missed due to my not seeing the forest for the trees. Which was, if blacks and whites did serve side by side at the Bulge, however localized, and for whatever reason, then I guess SL isn't so inaccurate for modeling them together in their game, if SL is indeed all about the Bulge, or the screenshots I saw were about the Bulge. So I certainly must stand corrected on that as I did not realize to what extent that had happened.

No actually, I guess I wasn't that clear on what I wrote, but I meant that all black units were led by white officers, but not necessarily at the company level. I had the Tuskegee Airmen in mind when I wrote it. The units in the air were black led, but ultimately it was white officers who directed their operations from HQ on the ground.

It is too bad, for us all, that the gaming industry just can't seem to get it. I'd gladly pay more money for a better product. But the way things stand now, and because I've been burned in the past, I rarely buy a game. Only the winners like CM, that I attempt to verify somehow prior to purchase. Ultimately, I might buy 2, maybe 3 games a year tops, if that many. The old axiom of "don't bite the hand that feeds you", is one that many in the industry seem to have forgot. Thankfully, BTS ain't one of those. And for that, they have my loyalty.

------------------

"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 11-01-2000).]

[Moon]

Well, as somebody who's spent a lot of hours with Random Games' earlier "Soldiers at War", it's quite obvious that this "Squad Leader" really is SAW2. And it's a bad sequel, too. Granted, they have added some things which people were asking for (the ability to move vehicles for example) and have also ironed out some of the game play faults (throwing handgrenades makes much more sense now), but they have messed up the graphics beyond believe. No clue why and how, but the game is as sluggish as one can imagine - and it's just good ol' isometric view...

[Slapdragon]

Personally I rather feel that the inclusion of black soldiers was probably not historical but a politically correct move on Hasbro's part -- now that I saw the game I cannot imagine that they would have reached the level of research it takes to stumble across black soldiers in the Bulge.

What I should of said is that the dummies got one thing right by accident.

Also, most black units had black officers and some white officers, but you are correct that above Colonel it turns all white since most everyone above Colonel was regular Army and only one black graduate of the military academy was in the Army at the start of World War Two. He had to attend the academy in complete silence since no other cadet, and no bottom rank professor spoke to him during his entire 4 years even to say something nasty.

[Mord]

Johnno I try demos and research by reading reviews and the such, but what I was mainly getting at was all the hype before a game is released when your hoping beyond hope that certain company will get certain game right, when others couldn't.

Now I am, as a gamer, fairly unforgiving. I have played some games that were torn apart by game mags that I found enjoyable. Trespasser being one. I played it before I read anything about it and was blown away. It had some flaws but I was really into it.

The reviews would have kept me from ever finding all those wonderful hours of gaming bliss. So taste is subjective. And at times I think all of us as a whole may be alittle harsh on the game makers.

But when a company touts it's newest creation as the best thing since sliced bread and the screenshots and previews from various mags say yes this one looks good and it sucks more than a 4 dollar Vietnamese hooker I get pissed. and I say oh well maybe such and such game will be the one.

play before you pay is definately a great idea but even that may be misleading.

Well we are lucky enough to where the cream rises and we get to see products like Doom, Simcity, Civ, and of course our beloved CM so I guess it ain't all bad.

And Bruno nice reply way up there. Thanks for responding.

Mord

[This message has been edited by Mord (edited 11-01-2000).]

[jpinard]

Hey Turretring. Mechwarrior 4 is being produced in-house by Microsoft, not Microprose. So you can buy it with confidence when it is released.

I'm looking forward to it also.

[jpinard]

Johnno, Rollercoaster Tycoon is excellent because Hasbro had NO part in the development. A single guy in England (Chris Sawyer), did all the deveopment himself. He shopped for publishers when it was near completion, and Hasbro bit. It could have been published by many other companies. Hasbro does not run the Rollercoaster Tycoon site either, Chris and his group does. Chris is like BTS, except he went mainstream with the publishing.