Believe it or not - facts about WW2

[Epée]

1. The first German serviceman killed in the war was killed by the

Japanese (China, 1937), the first American serviceman killed was killed

by the Russians (Finland 1940), the highest ranking American killed was

LtGen. Lesley McNair, killed by the US Army Air Corps. So much for

allies.

2. The youngest US serviceman was 12 year old Calvin Graham, USN. He was

wounded in combat and given a Dishonorable Discharge for lying about his

age. (His benefits were later restored by act of Congress)

3. At the time of Pearl Harbor the top US Navy command was called CINCUS

(pronounced "sink us"), the shoulder patch of the US Army's 45th.

Infantry division was the Swastika, and Hitler's private train was named

"Amerika". All three were soon changed for PR purposes.

4. More US servicemen died in the Air Corps than the Marine Corps. While

completing the required 30 missions your chance of being killed was 71%.

5. Not that bombers were helpless. A B-17 carried 4 tons of bombs and

1.5 tons of machine gun ammo. The US 8th Air Force shot down 6,098

fighter planes, 1 for every 12,700 shots fired.

6. Germany's power grid was much more vulnerable than realized. One

estimate is that if just 1% of the bombs dropped on German industry had

instead been dropped on power plants German industry would have

collapsed.

7. Generally speaking there was no such thing as an average fighter

pilot. You were either an ace or a target. For instance Japanese ace

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa shot down over 80 planes. He died while a passenger

on a cargo plane.

8. It was a common practice on fighter planes to load every 5th round

with a tracer round to aid in aiming. This was a mistake. The tracers

had different ballistics so (at long range) if your tracers were hitting

the target 80% of your rounds were missing. Worse yet the tracers

instantly told your enemy he was under fire and from which direction.

Worst of all was the practice of loading a string of tracers at the end

of the belt to tell you that you were out of ammo. This was definitely

not something you wanted to tell the enemy. Units that stopped using

tracers saw their success rate nearly double and their loss rate go

down.

9. When allied armies reached the Rhine the first thing men did was pee

in it. This was pretty universal from the lowest private to Winston

Churchill (who made a big show of it) and Gen. Patton (who had himself

photographed in the act).

10. German Me-264 bombers were capable of bombing New York City but it

wasn't worth the effort.

11. A number of aircrewmen died of farts. (ascending to 20,000 ft. in

and unpressurized aircraft causes intestinal gas to expand 300%).

12. The Russians destroyed over 500 German aircraft by ramming them in

mid-air (they also sometimes cleared minefields by marching over them).

"It takes a brave man not to be a hero in the Red Army" - Joseph Stalin

13. The US Army had more ships than the US Navy.

14. The German Air Force had 22 infantry divisions, 2 armor divisions,

and 11 paratroop divisions. None of them were capable of airborne

operations. The German Army had paratroops who WERE capable of airborne

operations. Go figure.

15. When the US Army landed in North Africa, among the equipment brought

ashore was 3 complete Coca Cola bottling plants.

16. Among the first "Germans" captured at Normandy were several

Koreans. They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they

were captured by the Russians and forced to fight for the Russian Army

until they were captured by the Germans and forced to fight for The

German Army until they were captured by the US Army.

17. German submarine U-120 was sunk by a malfunctioning toilet.

18. The Graf Spee never sank. The scuttling attempt failed and the ship

was bought as scrap by the British. On board was Germany's newest radar

system.

19. One of Japan's methods of destroying tanks was to bury a very large

artillery shell with only the nose exposed. When a tank came near

enough a soldier would whack the shell with a hammer. "Lack of weapons

is no excuse for defeat." - LtGen. Mutaguchi

20. Following a massive naval bombardment 35,000 US and Canadian troops

stormed ashore at Kiska. 21 troops were killed in the firefight. It

would have been worse if there had been Japanese on the island.

21. The MISS ME was an unarmed Piper Cub. While spotting for US

artillery her pilot saw a similar German plane doing the same thing. He

dove on the German plane and he and his co-pilot fired their pistols

damaging the German plane enough that it had to make a forced landing.

Whereupon they landed and took the Germans prisoner. I don't know where

they put them since the MISS ME only had 2 seats.

22. Most members of the Waffen SS were not German.

23. The only nation that Germany declared war on was the USA.

24. During the Japanese attack on Hong Kong British officers objected to

Canadian infantrymen taking up positions in the officer's mess. No

enlisted men allowed you know.

25. Nuclear physicist Niels Bohr was rescued in the nick of time from

German occupied Denmark. While Danish resistance fighters provided

covering fire he ran out the back door of his home stopping momentarily

to grab a beer bottle full of precious "Heavy Water". He finally

reached England still clutching the bottle. Which contained beer. I

suppose some German drank the Heavy Water.

26. More French citizens died fighting for Germany on the Eastern Front

than did fighting for France in 1940.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

good stuff Epee. Yeah those Japanese I-class subs were huge. They evacuated Kiska a few days before on subs. That one is pretty sad.

[jshandorf]

I like the last one... Makes quite a statement, doesn't it?

Jeff

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epée:

1. ...the highest ranking American killed was

LtGen. Lesley McNair, killed by the US Army Air Corps. So much for

allies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoever dropped the short that killed McNair should have been given a medal. That guy probably saved more American Army lives than any other single person in the war.

Jeff Heidman

[Jeff Heidman]

These are all interesting, but several contain some well-known urban myths.

For example, the bit about German power production. It is easy after the war to say that it was vulnerable, but the reality is that any disruption would be temporary at best, simply because the Germans would have addressed the vulnerability as soon as it became apparent. They weren't stupid.

The bit with tracers in MG belts on fighters is also a bit misleading. The issue only came into play at long range, and VERY few planes were ever shot down at long range anyway, as it was extremely difficult to get a hit regradless of whether or not you had tracers. The great aces were the ones who knew how to hold fire until they got a close-medium range shot, and, of course, knew how to get into that position to begin with!

Some of these are very interesting. The one about Russian planes ramming Germans I have heard before. I have even heard that a couple pilots actually managed to get good at it, and are credited with a few kills a piece using the tactic!

Jeff Heidman

[This message has been edited by Jeff Heidman (edited 09-05-2000).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Epée:

13. The US Army had more ships than the US Navy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to see some proof of that. I might accept that the Army had more transport ships than the Navy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>14. The German Air Force had 22 infantry divisions, 2 armor divisions,

and 11 paratroop divisions. None of them were capable of airborne

operations. The German Army had paratroops who WERE capable of airborne

operations. Go figure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dispute that too. The Luftwaffe had at least two divisions that were airdroppable.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>18. The Graf Spee never sank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on what you mean by "sunk". I believe everything but her mastheads was underwater. Most people would call that sunk.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>25. Nuclear physicist Niels Bohr was rescued in the nick of time from

German occupied Denmark. While Danish resistance fighters provided

covering fire he ran out the back door of his home...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the way I heard it. Yes, the Germans were coming for him, but he made his escape (with the aid of the underground) quietly.

One should check stories like these very carefully. The more sensational they are, the more you should demand proof. People have a way of grabbing hold of the sensational and retailing it simply because it is sensational. But it may be a rank distortion, if not an outright fabrication.

Michael

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

13. The US Army had more ships than the US Navy.

I'd like to see some proof of that. I might accept that the Army had more transport ships than the Navy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It really comes down to what one calls a ship. Even today, the US Army has more aircraft than the US Air Force.

Cav

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Some of these are very interesting. The one about Russian planes ramming Germans I have heard before. I have even heard that a couple pilots actually managed to get good at it, and are credited with a few kills a piece using the tactic!

Jeff Heidman

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC, the Germans produced some specialized FW190s that had armored wing leading edges and were supposed to ram US bombers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Depends on what you mean by "sunk". I believe everything but her mastheads was underwater. Most people would call that sunk.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the photos that I've seen the Graf Spee sank to only about the level of it's deck. The depth of water in the Plate estuary was one of Langsdorf's (Capt. of the G.S.) concerns when contemplating what to do after he was bottled up in Montivideo.

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[This message has been edited by IntelWeenie (edited 09-05-2000).]

[PawBroon]

If we are to be touchy about historical accuracy I might as well chirp in.

Being french I'm borderline offended by the last one.

I know for a fact some french fought willingly with the SS on the eastern front.

But most of those we fought there were called the "Malgré nous" which stand for "In spite of us".

Those guys were from Alsace-Lorraine which Hitler considered as part of Germany and were drafted and sent there.

I doubt it that more french died fighting for the Nazis rather than against it.

If you're from a country which surrendered as soon as cheese was lacking, why would you die for some other moron?

Beware of some comments.

In any case, if I am wrong, which wouldn't surprise me that much since french history books wouldn't advertise the actual figures if they are true, then I am sorry too over react.

If not then that last point was a lil' under the belt.

------------------

Either he's dead or my watch has stopped

[Teamski]

It's a well known fact that Russian pilots rammed German aircraft quite simply because they were drunk on Vodka. No lie!

Anyways, as far as German Airborne divisions being droppable. In addition to the well known losses at Crete of paratroopers, where would you get the aircraft to even try a division size drop? The Germans were WELL short of any transports due to losses over the Med such as the Palm Sunday Massacre. Add in the desperate measures trying to relieve the Stalingrad pocket. The Germans were using large numbers of HE-111s to fill the gaps......

-Ski

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"The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........"

[Guest Silesian-jaeger]

Taken from "World War II Almanac" by Robert Goralski:

THE FIRST SHELLING OF THE U.S. MAINLAND

"Japanese submarine I-17 shelled the Elwood oil field west of Santa Barbara, California, in the early evening hours of Feb. 23, 1942. About 25 shells were fired by the craft, most of which exploded close but harmlessly among the derricks and storage facilities. One rig was hit, causing $500 in damages. There were no casualties. Why was this particular facility atacked? A history of the Richfield Oil Corporation, From the Rio Grande to the Arctic by Charles S. Jones, says the shelling was an act of revenge by the submarine's captain, Kizo Nishino. In the late 1930's, Nishino commanded a Japanese tanker which picked up a cargo of crude oil at Elwood. He and the crew were received by the company and local government officials in a formal ceremony. Captain Nishino slipped while climbing a path from the beach and fell into a cluster of cactus. The American party was as embarrassed as the Japanese captain, but a group of workers at a nearby rig could not contain their laughter as cactus spines were being removed from Captain Nishino's backside. The uproarious behavior irritated the captain, and he vowed never to forget the incident. He returned with his submarine in 1942 to remind the Americans of it."

------------------

"In one (German) town, Private Honey stood next to an

elderly German man and a ten-year-old boy. As the Shermans and brand-new

Pershings rumbled by the boy said,'Deutsches Panzer lind besser.' Honey

looked down at him and asked,'If

German tanks are better,

why aren't they here?' "

quote from Stephen E. Ambrose, "Citizen Soldiers"

[pford]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PawBroon:

If we are to be touchy about historical accuracy I might as well chirp in.

Being french I'm borderline offended by the last one.

I know for a fact some french fought willingly with the SS on the eastern front.

But most of those we fought there were called the "Malgré nous" which stand for "In spite of us".

Those guys were from Alsace-Lorraine which Hitler considered as part of Germany and were drafted and sent there.

I doubt it that more french died fighting for the Nazis rather than against it.

If you're from a country which surrendered as soon as cheese was lacking, why would you die for some other moron?

Beware of some comments.

In any case, if I am wrong, which wouldn't surprise me that much since french history books wouldn't advertise the actual figures if they are true, then I am sorry too over react.

If not then that last point was a lil' under the belt.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I were French, I would be offended too. I think that this quote is playing with statistics such as who is French and who died fighting. If one looks at regular military, than the French losses were light because the loss was so fast. Not that the per battle casulities were light. Now if even a small porportion fought for Germany, their overall losses may be very heavy because of the longer duration. I suspect this "fact" ignores the resistance and all those civilian deaths that occured during the occupation. I would also not be surprised if it ignored the Free French and counted Vichey <sp?> French losses.

[howardb]

I think they're all great. Great reading Epèe...

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PawBroon:

If we are to be touchy about historical accuracy I might as well chirp in.

Being french I'm borderline offended by the last one.

I know for a fact some french fought willingly with the SS on the eastern front.

But most of those we fought there were called the "Malgré nous" which stand for "In spite of us".

Those guys were from Alsace-Lorraine which Hitler considered as part of Germany and were drafted and sent there.

I doubt it that more french died fighting for the Nazis rather than against it.

If you're from a country which surrendered as soon as cheese was lacking, why would you die for some other moron?

Beware of some comments.

In any case, if I am wrong, which wouldn't surprise me that much since french history books wouldn't advertise the actual figures if they are true, then I am sorry too over react.

If not then that last point was a lil' under the belt.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offense, but your objection amounts to "Man, that reported "fact" is kind of offensive to me, and I do not like the idea that it might be true, so please do not say such things!"

If you think it is untrue (and it may very well be), then it behooves you to say so, and refute it with something more substantial than your sense of pride.

Jeff Heidman

[Guest Chris B]

>12. The Russians destroyed over 500 German aircraft by ramming them in mid-air.

Supposedly there was an official russian tactic to chop up the rear of german planes with your propeller once you were out of ammo. It was called a Taravan or something similar. The highest ranking russian ace confessed to never having used the maneuver as he "never ran out of ammo". I am sure any russian(s) on this board can get the facts straigt.

>5. Not that bombers were helpless. A B-17 carried 4 tons of bombs and 1.5 tons of machine gun ammo. The US 8th Air Force shot down 6,098 fighter planes, 1 for every 12,700 shots fired.

This is a myth. Absolute and total fiction. You should read Pierre Closterman's (a french pilot in the RAF) comments on this. I have to check the exact quote, but in short when an RAF pilot shot down a plane, unless someone witnessed it, or the nose camera took a picture of it, it was only a possible kill, not a confirmed kill. When a german fighter went down inside a bomber "box", whether shot down or just diving, at least 4 gunners would claim a kill and get it.

---

First my humble apologies to the amaceing Closterman for calling him Clousterman (fixed above).

Ahh heres the quote (translated): "The english said it was better to, like they did, underestimate the number of victories through a very rigid system of verification through photografy, rather than base the kills on individual reports that where hard to confirm. In a "box"-formation of 72 flying fortresses there where between 3 and 4 hundred machinegun gunners. If they fired at a score of Focke-Wulfs and in reality shot down five, there where several dozen gunners that claimed in good faith that they had shot one down.

It's rather odd, that at a raid against Augsburg 900 british and american escort fighters claimed to have shot down 118 german planes at the same time as the 500 flying fortresses claimed 350 kills, which amounts to a whole third of the total german sorties that day."

[This message has been edited by Chris B (edited 09-05-2000).]

[Guest Lucky]

Not related to WWII but its creepy.

Here's a little part of US history which makes you go h-m-m-m-m....

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in l846.

John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in l946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in l860.

John F. Kennedy was elected President in l960.

The names Lincoln and Kennedy each contain seven letters.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.

Both wives lost their children while living in the White House.

Both Presidents were shot in the head.

Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.

Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln.

Both were assassinated by Southerners.

Both were succeeded by Southerners.

Both successors were named Johnson.

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.

Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in l908.

John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1839.

Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born in 1939.

Both assassins were known by their three names.

Both names are comprised of fifteen letters.

Lincoln was shot at the theater named "Kennedy".

Kennedy was shot in a car called "Lincoln".

Booth ran from the theater and was caught in a warehouse.

Oswald ran from a warehouse and was caught in a theater.

Booth and Oswald were assassinated before their trials.

And here's the kicker...

A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe, Maryland.

A week before Kennedy was shot, he was with Marilyn Monroe.

Creepy!!!

[pzvg]

Yep the Army had more ships than the Navy,(technically) Every LST,LSI,landing craft,FSI

and Floating dock was under Army control, and there were hundreds of them.

------------------

Pzvg

"Confucious say, it is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

[infohawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

If you think it is untrue (and it may very well be), then it behooves you to say so, and refute it with something more substantial than your sense of pride.

Jeff Heidman

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff,

PawBroon and another poster gave reasons why they thought the fact in question could be untrue. Did you read them?

You were also pretty liberal in your paraphrasing of PawBroon's argument. IMO, PawBroon argument wasn't based on his pride being hurt.

[This message has been edited by infohawk (edited 09-05-2000).]

[PawBroon]

Never said that Jeff.

I did BTW say exactly the reverse...

Would you be so kind as reading the last part?

If it's true (and please note that no actual figures where produced in that case either) I said that it would be another exemple of a governement rewriting history by not teaching it.

It is said in our books that some ****ed up actually enlisted to go fight the Reds.

It is also said that apart from them, MANY french were merely drafted and sent there.

So what I was trying to convey (but I guess it didn't come accross seeing your post) is that one have to study the figure and not just state that boldly.

And BTW, why is it that some people could say without substantiating that point A or B is an Urban Legend and I as a french could not do the same?

We french did some pretty ****ty things during the war and they are not discussed here because of the way those posts had faired lately.

So I rather have you bashed the french than specifically me...

That's all.

------------------

Either he's dead or my watch has stopped

[tss]

Teamski wrote:

It's a well known fact that Russian pilots rammed German aircraft quite simply because they were drunk on Vodka. No lie!

Well, I'd guess that a pilot on Vodka would have a pretty difficult time trying to hit enemy planes.

On subject of flying while drunk. The German Ace Helmut Lipfert (a little over 200 victories) tells in his memoirs that while they were stationed in Crimea (1943, IIRC) their field was near the great Champagne storage that contained tens of thousands of bottles. He said that they drunk a lot of it and sometimes even flew drunk. He also mentioned that while he felt invincible, he never got a single victory while drunk and was almost shot down many times.

- Tommi

[Gregory Deych]

Teamski,

It must not be a very well known fact, because I've never heard about it, and I'm a fair hand at Eastern Front history. Do you have something to back up your vodka story, or is it something your buddy heard from his friend kind of thing?

The ramming was usually done either via propeller against the tail surfaces or the undercarriage vs pretty much anything. As you can imagine, this is not an exact science.

[vimes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Supposedly there was an official russian tactic to chop up the rear of german planes with your propeller once you were out of ammo. It was called a Taravan or something similar. The highest ranking russian ace confessed to never having used the maneuver as he "never ran out of ammo". I am sure any russian(s) on this board can get the facts straigt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is called taran you were close. The number looks kind of high though 500 tarans is a bit too much me thinks.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When a german fighter went down inside a bomber "box", whether shot down or just diving, at least 4 gunners would claim a kill and get it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read somewere that the kills that were credited to the gunners far exceeded the numbers of fighters that the Luftwafe had.

[Check6]

"Lincoln was shot at the theater named 'Kennedy'."

I'm surprised that nobody noticed that this is patently false, unless it's me who missed some detail. Lincoln was shot at Ford's Theater.

EDIT: Furthermore, Booth was not captured in a warehouse, he was shot by law enforcement officials in a barn. He was not assassinated. It is also stretching the word "warehouse" to use it for the building Oswald shot from - it was in fact a multi-story "book depository". I'm still checking on the dates.

[This message has been edited by Check6 (edited 09-05-2000).]

[Dixie Diner Six]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Check6:

EDIT: Furthermore, Booth was not captured in a warehouse, he was shot by law enforcement officials in a barn. He was not assassinated. It is also stretching the word "warehouse" to use it for the building Oswald shot from - it was in fact a multi-story "book depository". I'm still checking on the dates.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Booth was surrounded in a tobacco shed. I wouldn't hesitate to call that a warehouse. A book depository would be a warehouse too, by definition.

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Let us pass over the river and rest under the shade of the trees

[pford]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

...

If you think it is untrue (and it may very well be), then it behooves you to say so, and refute it .....

Jeff Heidman

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obligating someone to disprove a statement is a fallicy. I can be skeptical about a so called fact, especially when it is presented without any supporting references. If anything,it behooves the person making the statement to prove its voracity, not vise versa. For example, I know for a fact that there is intellegent life on Titan. Now please prove me wrong.

[This message has been edited by pford (edited 09-05-2000).]