Jeep Rush?

[Capt. Toleran]

Risking the ire of those who may find this a ridiculous topic, or whining...

Recently, while playing CM with a co-worker, I was subjected to a strategy that I'm not sure about -- is it gamey, or realistic?

Because MG Jeeps are so cheap on the American side, he bought 5 of them, and raced them ahead of his troops in the first turn. By the second round, they had either been knocked out, or had run directly into my troops, revealing their positions. Though I had also thought of using this tactic, I had not thought of doing it on this scale, and the nuisance it causes in both subjecting units to immediate attack and the loss of the element of surprise is unsurpassed. Many of my important troop positions were revealed before I could do anything, and the loss of the jeeps did not seem to affect his troops morale in any appreciable way. This bothers me, because it reminds me of other "rushes" from games such as AOE, AOK, etc.

Maybe I'm just being a baby about it. This could be Blitzkrieg (albeit Kamikaze Blitzkrieg), and I'm just the recipient of an excellent scouting/diversionary tactic. If so, how would you defend against this tactic, and do you feel that the loss of a jeep should count more against enemy morale (especially 5 jeeps)?

Awaiting your advice/response/scolding:0

[Guest Mirage2k]

I'd say that it isn't gamey, but it doesn't show a lot of concern for the well-being of your men

-Andrew

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[Formerly Babra]

Well, jeeps are for recce, and recce has to go out front. A "rush" wouldn't be my preferred way of doing it. I'd at least try to make it look like a proper recon using cover and short fast rushes.

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Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me.

[GhostAgent]

I would think loosing that many jeeps would make the player who owns them loose more moral then the other player, hehe. I find loosing them a major annoyance. I guess this strategy would be good for scouting enemy positions if you can afford the jeeps (as cheap as they are). I like to scout out with infanty teams because they wont get "knocked out" and will usually survive enough to pull back if they get into trouble. Of course if i dont have the time to wait for guys to run across the map, jeeps and scout cars do fine.

[Pham911]

If you're playing a hotseat game with a co-worker, the prefered method of recon is to sneak a look over thier shoulder during the setup phase.

[Grognerd_Fogman]

I've started using a couple of jeeps (non-MG) at the beginning to scout out thine enemy. I know they're probly gonna be wasted but if you try an run unpredictable routs they can last awhile and reveal good stuff. They can also carry more peeps than the MG jeep if so desired. [edit] I should say they have a higher transport class. [end edit]

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Thanks for Athskin!

[This message has been edited by Grognerd_Fogman (edited 08-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Grognerd_Fogman (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k:

I'd say that it isn't gamey, but it doesn't show a lot of concern for the well-being of your men

-Andrew

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't find it especially gamey, except that the number used in this manner seems a bit high. As for the well-being of the men, it seems to me that jeep crews have a highly developed sense of self-preservation. They seem to bail out if someone snaps their chewing gum.

Michael

[Tanaka]

Did the American Army use this tatic (Jeep Rush) ? I dont´s think so

If they did use it... How come they convince the guys in the jeep to do it ? The team in the jeep must be some sort of kamikaze... Do they have some goodbey party ?

I always thought that the jeep was an ordnance vehicle.

João

[BasilD]

As I remember this was part of Patton's strategy guide, something to the effect of: Drive forward til something blows you up then come back and give me a report.

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As the victors define history, so does the majority define sanity...

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BasilD:

As I remember this was part of Patton's strategy guide, something to the effect of: Drive forward til something blows you up then come back and give me a report.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No wonder Patton had that nickname, good ol blood an guts...."our blood, his guts!" from the G.I.'s perspective.

Regards

Jim R.

[PatAWilson]

I'm with Grognard Frogman. I use them for recce but I at least try to give them movement orders that allow them a chance at survival.

[Sergei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tanaka:

Did the American Army use this tatic (Jeep Rush) ? I dont´s think so

If they did use it... How come they convince the guys in the jeep to do it ? The team in the jeep must be some sort of kamikaze... Do they have some goodbey party ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They gave booze to German POW's, dressed them up as Americans, planted them on Jeep's drivers seat and told them to drive home.

Historians have remained silent about this one, because the POW's either died or were so drunk that they don't anymore remember anything about what happened.

[Schrullenhaft]

It's gamey because you have such a pervasive knowledge of the battlefield in CM that normally doesn't exist. This is a limitation that will be very hard to program a solution for in the future.

By sending a jeep up all possible avenues of approach your opponent will gather a bunch of intel on your units and positions that would be unrealistic. Utilizing such a tactic in real life would quite often just indicate that you lost a patrol that was headed in a particular direction. If you were lucky they may have radioed in when they engaged, but even then you would only get a partial amount of the info that you would get in CM.

What would be needed to offset this is some kind of situational awareness in the TacAI that would allow it to ignore such a contact if it was seen as being an unescorted probe. That way a recce jeep could pass through some of your initial ambushes (depending on your concealment, etc.) and get whacked by someone further down the line. But considering how hard it is to come up with a solution for AFV targeting, this is going to be an unrealistic expectation at this point for BTS to come up with a tweak to the TacAI that will work for everyone (or possibly anyone since such situational awareness would be a pretty complex tweak).

[This message has been edited by Schrullenhaft (edited 08-26-2000).]

[EScurlock]

I'd call it gamey becouse if you discribed his actions correctly he performed a recon by death. I used to do this all the time in Steel Panthers. The only difference was that I at least expected the halftrack or other APC I'd use to have a sporting chance of survival, then I'd pop smoke with the dismounted infantry. This guy pretty much murdered his jeep drivers, as apposed to a realistic recon. Realistically the jeep would park behind cover, the recon unit would get out and sneak into an observation possition and sit, watch, and listen.

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He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins.

[Pham911]

It's not really recon by death, as the jeep isn't living. The driver(s) tend to hop out whenever they even think that someone might possibly be about to shoot them, so they usually don't die in the jeep(it does happen sometimes though).

If you followed your strategy of park, exit, sneak, and watch, you'd have a very boring war. As the attacker going up against a well fortified enemy laying in ambush, you'd have to wait and watch until one of the hidden enemy troops made a mistake and sneezed or rustled branches or something.

Fact is, someone has to take the first shot when you make contact. I'd rather draw fire to a jeep skirting a treeline quickly than to a squad of men walking towards it slowly. Drawing fire with 5 jeeps smashing into probable enemy positions isn't such a realistic idea, though, as they weren't quite this disposable. I guess there's a middle ground.

Also, I've had the experience where I do a fast run with a jeep, it gets taken out, but I get no info on enemy positions. Not sure why it happens, but it seemed pretty realistic to me.

[MERC]

Its not gamey. It called scouting. The battle between scouts is called the counter-recon battle.

If I'm not mistaken, the U.S. Army has/is transitioning their scouts from Bradleys to Hummers. I believe the idea is you want your scouts scouting not fighting.

[EScurlock]

The survival of the driver is a mater of chance. Yes they do survive more than not. It's still a matter of recon by blattently setting your troops up to get killed - recon by being shot at, as apposed to recon by fire. Yes things could be quite slow in many scenarios using the above described tactic, but that's how things are done time allowing. I realize this technique is not suitable to all situations, but it does have its time and place.

I personally have gone as long as 9 turns without fireing a shot in Valley of Trouble. Only after I figured out pretty much where the enemy was, did I come out of hiding and crush the enemy. The game was not boring at all. Suspence filled all the way.

In the end annalysis the question is: would a recon unit such as a jeep be expected as a matter of duty (not above and beyond) be expected to race around in front of suspected enemy possitions with the sole purpose of drawing fire? I have two close friends that worked recon, one an Army 13E, the other an Air Force Romad, both dedicated to their jobs. The responce they would give to such an order is not fit to be published in an open bulletin board.

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He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins.

[This message has been edited by EScurlock (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Pham911]

Ok, I'll buy that there's a better method to recon than drawing fire with a jeep. Many scenarios have very restrictive time limits which prevent a more thoughful tactic, so it's probably more effective in real life to cautiously search for the enemy than in CM.

Which brings me to my question; What is a good recon method in CM that doesn't involve jeeps or the "advance until shot at" tactic I tend to use(though I do use cover to conceal my approaches).

Also, aren't some of the time restrictions a bit short? I mean, 12 minutes to locate the enemy, advance on his fortified position, force him from where he is or kill him in place, then take the victory location doesn't leave a lot of room for subtle manuvering.

[Grognerd_Fogman]

That's why from now on I'm gonna demand at least 40 turns for a PBEM on a med map and at least 50 turns for a large map. This is so you don't always have to feel rushed, especially for an attacker battle, to be able to take your time and avoid what some people call "gamey" tactics.

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Thanks for Athskin!

[Capt. Toleran]

Judging by some of the comments above, I think that possibly the remedy might be to make the jeeps worth more as far as morale is concerned. That way, the "recon by being fired at" technique is still viable, as some here feel it should be, but the risk to your morale offsets the expendability of the units (how many soldiers would like seeing their buddies sent off regularly on complete suicide missions?).

[Banshee]

In Citizen Soldiers by Stephen Ambrose, he mentions the German tactic of sending in armored cars to draw fire and then retreat. While the tactic of sending in units to draw fire is sound , the way your friend is actually employing the units is gamey.IMHO, Recon forces in a "move to contact" scenario would move in short rushes from cover to cover with overwatch.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Guest Michael emrys]

There were a lot of ways to conduct recon in WW II, and which one you chose depended on how much time you had and what your resources were (one resource being the imagination and tactical acumen of your commanders). Recon by being fired at was not at all uncommon, nor does it necessarily deserve to be called suicidal. Troops engaging in it were expected to use a modicum of discretion (overwatch; withdraw as soon as enemy units had revealed their positions, etc.).

German recon battalions for mobile divisions (Panzer, Panzer Grenadier) were expected to *fight* for information. As a consequence, they were *very* heavily armed and were expected to be very aggressive.

In more static situations, where one had days or weeks to prepare for an attack, patrols would be sent out on foot. These relied on stealth. Usually these would go out at night, either to return under cover of darkness or to lay up in hides near the enemy observing during the day and returning later. I don't see any way to represent this in CM without reducing the FOW, which is really no solution at all. Alternatively, a scenario designer might give each side accurate information to the extent that patrol/observation might have provided it.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Hawkeye]

Yeah, I can picture my CO now.

"Now listen to me son. You see that patch of trees up the hill there? I want you to drive your jeep full speed INTO those trees. We suspect a HEAVY enemy presence and we need you to root them out..."

"-- but Sir! If you think there's enemies there why don't you just fire into--"

"-- DON'T interrupt me son! Now if it turns out there ARE infantry hiding in the foliage then you should probably abandon the expensive jeep that the US army has provided for you and then try to run back down the exposed hillside. Be sure to zig zag so that the mg42's that are only about 30 feet away don't hit you. If it turns out there ISN'T an enemy presence then you will then proceed to drive your jeep into the next cluster of trees where they might be hiding until you're forced to abandon your expensive vehichle. Is that clear?"

I think that this kind of behavior would definitely encourage confidence in the CO's which is probably why there were so many kamikaze jeep recons during WWII.

Anyway. I think it's gamey. If you want to simulate realism then you should show some concern for the lives of your men and for the preservation of army equipment.

Hawkeye

[GonzoAttacker]

Moving jeeps around sounds like someone from

Panzer General Background playing?? It is an old trick from Panzer General 2.

It is not gamey and maybe down the road it will cost the gamer a few too many points.

Will never win the big one, in a well concieved map.

[Tanaka]

very good post Hawkeye.

Think Capt. Toleran compromise solution is good for CM1

The Problem looks to be that we already know the enemy is inside tha closed square thing that we call map (this is more serious in Small/medium maps). Do you remember any map where the enemy didn´t appear ?

In real 2nd world war we wouldn´t know where the enemy is ,(Enigma and Scout Planes would take some time to process the data), there is no map edge to limit the enemy. In this case we would send some scouts(Inf/hummers/jeeps and so on)just to find where exactly he is. The idea would be that you want your scouts scouting not fighting and come back ALIVE to report...( they could use radio, but definetly they must be ALIVE to do it )

This last part,abaut beeing alive, was for MERC

João

[This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 08-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tanaka (edited 08-27-2000).]