IntelWeenie Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hawkeye: Yeah, I can picture my CO now. "Now listen to me son. You see that patch of trees up the hill there? I want you to drive your jeep full speed INTO those trees. We suspect a HEAVY enemy presence and we need you to root them out..." "-- but Sir! If you think there's enemies there why don't you just fire into--" "-- DON'T interrupt me son! Now if it turns out there ARE infantry hiding in the foliage then you should probably abandon the expensive jeep that the US army has provided for you and then try to run back down the exposed hillside. Be sure to zig zag so that the mg42's that are only about 30 feet away don't hit you. If it turns out there ISN'T an enemy presence then you will then proceed to drive your jeep into the next cluster of trees where they might be hiding until you're forced to abandon your expensive vehichle. Is that clear?" I think that this kind of behavior would definitely encourage confidence in the CO's which is probably why there were so many kamikaze jeep recons during WWII. Anyway. I think it's gamey. If you want to simulate realism then you should show some concern for the lives of your men and for the preservation of army equipment. Hawkeye<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry for dredging up an old thread, but hear me out. I was just reading "Operation Iceberg" by Gerald Astor and this passage stood out for me (page 306): <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As if on cue, five jeeps brought up supplies. The officer in charge placed a driver and machine gunner in each jeep and told them to charge the clump of trees with machine gun firing (emphasis is mine). The first one got about fifty yards before he either tipped over or was shot. The officer immediately sent out the second jeep, who travelled only a little farther. The third jeep finally reached the top of the ridge and fired his machine gun into the group of trees. Then he waved us all on. It was a kind of casual wave, like he did this all the time for a living.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Granted, this was on Okinawa and not in Europe, but.... ------------------ Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 I've pointed this out every time this subject rears its ugly head but here it goes again. The scope of CM doesnt include detailed reconnaissance. CM covers the final stages of a battle, whether it be the final sweep into a village, the penetration of a defensive line, or the initial contact of a meeting engagement. As a commnader in CM you have been givin orders to seize some terrain or destroy the enemy vicinity some terrain feature. To lay on your laurels while attempting to pinpoint the enemy would be seen as cowardly and as an unnecessary delaying tactic on your part. By the time you have received your orders in CM the reconnaissance is complete, the analysis is done and the guys back in the warm, dry Chateau de HQ have given you the forces they feel are required to take the ground. As a scout platoon leader my job was usually done hours before the rifle companies actually got near the objective. I would get inserted a day or two before the battalion was to attack and would send back reports constantly until close to H-hour (hit time). An hour or so before I would pull my platoon off the objective, either to simply get out of the way or to act as guides for the attacking companies. In CM an assault or attack scenario should include a detailed intel report in the scenario breif, since these are planned, deliberate attacks. Probes and meeting engagements would have less intel since these are missions done sorta on the fly or when contact with the enemy has been lost. But these still dont warrant detailed recon. CM portrays the actual contact for a movement to contact, not the entire movement to contact. So develop a plan based on terrain and what you already know and go with it. If you're doing a quick battle then you should stick to meeting engagements and probes since an assault or attack would be like throwing yourself on the Seigfried Line with absolutely no intel what so ever. Even still I wouldnt waste my time on recon since with the odds given the attacker in assaults/attacks you should be able to overwhelm your opponent if you apply the principles of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 Capt. Toleran: It Sounds pretty darn “gamey” to me. Irritating really. It’s akin to folks I sometimes play Talonsoft’s East Front2 or West Front with. After dismounting their passengers they have an annoying habit of using there trucks for recon. ZZZZzzzzz. Come on. Show me some historical examples of suicide Jeep rushes, in which a company commander would tell his men: “Ok boys...you guys race ahead of the main advance till you get all shot up. You’ll be dead but rest assured it wont have been in vane cause we’ll know where the bad guys are.” Everyone please stand while I give a rousing Bronx salute to suicide recon jeep rushes...”RASPBERRY!” Your only consolation is that typically folks with the wits to come up with suicide jeep raids typically don’t have a large number of other tactical skills in their toolbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 Sorry, just read Scout PL’s post. I like his insights. I think it would add an additional level of immersion to the game to have some sort of detailed briefing sequence before the start of scenarios. I’m not sure how a briefing sequence would work for point based games...but frankly point based games are always going to result in “gamey” scenarios. Not that I would suggest removing point based scenarios from the game...there way to popular. Unfortunately suicide jeep raids and similar gamey tactics are par for the course in wargaming. You can’t get around this. Regarding Operation Iceburg...please. Lets see the context of this goofy attack. I expect 2nd Lieutenant Numb Nuts didn’t last very long giving orders like that. A poster child for the legalization of fratricide...or “frag-ricide” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnno Posted October 15, 2000 Share Posted October 15, 2000 Pfff...You guys. I just got rushed by 3 jeeps, I took out 2 and he took out a panzerschreck and a Arty Spotter as well as reveiling two platoons hiding. I was mad yeah, so what! What was his altermnative? Huh? Walk in with a tank and see if anythings there? Or Guess, there's something there and spray the woods with all his firepower including a barrage? Please give me a break the jeep recon thing is not gamey and not unrealistic. Men in wars were meant to do suicidal missions all the time. Incidentally, this topic is OLD! BUMP, BUMP, Bumpity BUMP BUMP! LOL. To quote someone in a previous thread and post in refference to this topic. If men were afraid to go on suicidal missions or meet impossible odds then "Omaha and Utah Beach wouldn't have been taken most likely." Pickets charge would never have happened,the Black Watch would be just another Canadian regiment name, the charge of the light brigade would never have happened and Americans would never have fought for independance. PS- The last one I kinda just threw in, but ya gotta admit a bunch of pioneers taking on the British Empire could be considered a bit suicidal at that time.)[b/] This game rocks and I love it, Johnno Out Don't rejoice in his defeat, you men, For though the world stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. -Bertolt Brecht [This message has been edited by Johnno (edited 10-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 15, 2000 Share Posted October 15, 2000 From Combat Lessons 1, a pamphlet published in 1944 by the US War Department: Staff Sergeant Richard E. Deland, Infantry, Sicily "In training, bear down on cover and concealment; bear down on the avoidance of the blundering approach... Battles move slowly; patrols can't dash about." From Combat Lessons 3, 1944 Brigadier General William H. Wilbur, Assistant Division Commander, ITALY "In our experience by far the major part of the reconnaisance missions assigned the reconnaisance troop required dismounted action... the Germans are extremely clever in concealment and a weak motorized patrol is quite apt to be captured as the Germans are likely to let them go by before opening fire." From http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/DL/chron.htm In conclusion - jeep rushes seem to have not been done. At the very least, they were highly frowned upon and considered ineffective, if not downright criminally inept. Like the folks say, advance your recon units in bounds, don't send 'em hell-for-leather into the enemy's positions trying to smoke them out. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted October 15, 2000 Share Posted October 15, 2000 Jesus didnt we deal with this jeepster crap already? EVEN BEHIND THE LINES it was stupid to drive fast in a jeep. It would throw up clouds of dust in Normandy and the mortors would rain down. I think any non-armored pnuematic tired vehicle needs to be dealt with in the next patch. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted October 15, 2000 Share Posted October 15, 2000 Golly, I just brought it up 'cause the passage from the book so perfectly matched the post... ------------------ Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Captain Foobar* Posted October 15, 2000 Share Posted October 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your only consolation is that typically folks with the wits to come up with suicide jeep raids typically don’t have a large number of other tactical skills in their toolbox.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL jeff! I think this will be my next sig... HAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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