Combat Mission Cold War - British Army On the Rhine

[Centurian52]

50 minutes ago, Halmbarte said:

My impression is that the Chieftain's armor is better sloped and thicker, but it's still not likely to be proof against the Sov guns using solid shot from 115mm on up and will be vulnerable to HEAT from Sov tanks from 100mm  on up. 

From what I see in game, not having the mini-me turret will save some hits but tanks from both sides can get hits with no problems, particularly when they have laser RFs.

I really want to see what Chieftain brings to the table in game, but I don't want to get my hopes up too much that it will be the slayer of T64s.

H 

It should at least be better than the M60A1. It won't be any more likely to penetrate the T-64's armor than the M60, but it has a laser rangefinder, so it will be more likely to hit. I expect it should be about as likely to hit a stationary target as an M60A3, though it won't be as likely to hit a moving target since it has no automatic lead.

The Chieftain certainly won't be able to take hits from its direct front, as several armor penetration simulations on youtube have demonstrated. But perhaps a round coming in from a more extreme angle might occasionally skip off the frontal armor. I have seen rounds glance off of the M60's turret from time to time (when hitting at a very extreme angle), and the Chieftain's thicker and more steeply sloped armor can only increase the chances of that happening. We'll have to wait and see if this results in a noticeable increase in survivability. It's possible there will be no noticeable difference at all, but it's also possible that the Chieftain's survivability against the T-62's 115mm gun might be similar to the Sherman's survivability against the Panzer IV's 75mm gun (hits from the direct front will generally penetrate, but hits striking the frontal armor from an angle may only get partial penetrations or spalling).

[Centurian52]

On 7/12/2024 at 3:03 AM, Lieutenant Ash said:

It's been half a year since the thread started, was wondering if there is any news or 'bones' about the expansion yet?

I'm not authorized to give any actual bones. But having recently peaked at the bone factory I can say that they're hard at work. I think most of the signs of progress that can actually be presented as something visual (things you can take a screenshot of to show off on a forum) generally come fairly late in the overall process. 

[Lieutenant Ash]

Hopefully they are still on track for a release this year, as you say  we will only see screenshots etc at preorder time a few months before release.

[Halmbarte]

10 hours ago, Centurian52 said:

It should at least be better than the M60A1. It won't be any more likely to penetrate the T-64's armor than the M60, but it has a laser rangefinder, so it will be more likely to hit. I expect it should be about as likely to hit a stationary target as an M60A3, though it won't be as likely to hit a moving target since it has no automatic lead.

The Chieftain certainly won't be able to take hits from its direct front, as several armor penetration simulations on youtube have demonstrated. But perhaps a round coming in from a more extreme angle might occasionally skip off the frontal armor. I have seen rounds glance off of the M60's turret from time to time (when hitting at a very extreme angle), and the Chieftain's thicker and more steeply sloped armor can only increase the chances of that happening. We'll have to wait and see if this results in a noticeable increase in survivability. It's possible there will be no noticeable difference at all, but it's also possible that the Chieftain's survivability against the T-62's 115mm gun might be similar to the Sherman's survivability against the Panzer IV's 75mm gun (hits from the direct front will generally penetrate, but hits striking the frontal armor from an angle may only get partial penetrations or spalling).

I thought Chieftain didn't get laser RF until the later versions and the early ones used a ranging MG. Which version are we likely to get in CW? 

H

[Centurian52]

1 minute ago, Halmbarte said:

I thought Chieftain didn't get laser RF until the later versions and the early ones used a ranging MG. Which version are we likely to get in CW? 

H

The Chieftain was initially fielded in 1965 and the timeframe is only going back as far as 1976. So we're not exactly getting an early version of the Chieftain. According to Wikipedia (so, grain of salt) the Chieftain Mk 3/3 had the Barr & Stroud TLS (Tank Laser Sight) fitted in 1973, three years before the game's timeframe. By the time we get into the game's timeframe the Mk 5 should be the latest variant, at least according to Wikipedia.

[Halmbarte]

1 hour ago, Centurian52 said:

The Chieftain was initially fielded in 1965 and the timeframe is only going back as far as 1976. So we're not exactly getting an early version of the Chieftain. According to Wikipedia (so, grain of salt) the Chieftain Mk 3/3 had the Barr & Stroud TLS (Tank Laser Sight) fitted in 1973, three years before the game's timeframe. By the time we get into the game's timeframe the Mk 5 should be the latest variant, at least according to Wikipedia.

That's good news. The T55s & T62s retrofitted with laser RFs are scary when you have M60s with optical RFs that are doing steamship ranging (over, under, straddle, fire for effect...)

H

[Duckman]

It's annoyingly hard to find exact details on upgrades to the Chieftain, probably because there were lots of them and it was a very gradual process across the entire fleet:

In 1975 all British Army earlier Marks of tanks except Mark 1s were upgraded to Chieftain Mk.5 standard as part of the 1975 "Totem Pole" programme. "Exercise Totem Pole" was carried out in six-to-nine phases depending on the Mark of vehicle being modified (Chieftain Mk.5's already had some of the required changes incorporated at the factory) between 1975 and 1979 and included fitment of the Marconi Improved Fire Control System (IFCS), replacement of the searchlight with the Barr & Stroud Thermal Observation Gunnery System (TOGS), along with modifications for using FSAPDS ammunition. Upon completion of each phase the vehicle received an additional suffix to the designation, e.g., "Chieftain Mk.3/S(Y)2" denoting a Mark 3/S having completed the first three phases of "Totem Pole". including addition of Clansman radios, fitting of TLS, fitment of Muzzle Reference System (MRS) upon replacement of L11A3 barrel with L11A5 barrel, and fitment of 750 hp L60 Mark 8A. These vehicles were re-designated Chieftain Mk's.6 to Mk.8. (Wiki)

The number of potential variants is bewildering, to say the least. Note the modifications for using finned amunition already in the 70s while the ammunition but not purchased until well into the 80s for unknown reasons. 

The big outstanding issue is the laser which was fitted to some Chieftains before 1975 but on the same time it isn't clear if it was part of the Totem Pole package (it seems not). Also note that the Chieftain has some other (unique?) things going for it in the gunnery department during the game's time period, like compensation for bore deformation.

As for protection it's again bewildering, with some sources claming the Chieftain was extremely well protected (presumaby because of the extreme armour slope and low profile for a Western tank) while others even claim it was poor. Unlike with the gunnery there were no significant armour upgrades until Stillbrew in the 80s.

Anyway, Battlefront say they have good British sources so I'm sure this will be cleared up.

Edited July 29 by Duckman

[Centurian52]

1 hour ago, Duckman said:

Barr & Stroud Thermal Observation Gunnery System (TOGS)

Am I to understand that (at least some) Chieftains had a thermal sight for the gunner in our timeframe? Combined with the laser rangefinder that would make it almost as capable as the M60A3 TTS. If the Marconi IFCS includes automatic lead then that would make it as capable as the M60A3 TTS.

1 hour ago, Duckman said:

As for protection it's again bewildering, with some sources claming the Chieftain was extremely well protected (presumaby because of the extreme armour slope and low profile for a Western tank) while others even claim it was poor.

We've discussed the protection to death. It was definitely very heavily armored. In fact I think the Chieftain just about maxed out what could be accomplished with homogenous steel armor alone. But I doubt any amount of homogenous steel armor, no matter how thick or steeply sloped, can provide much protection against 70s munitions. I just don't see you stopping a HEAT warhead unless you've got composite armor or ERA.

So the Chieftain is definitely much more heavily armored than the M60 or Leopard, which could have lead to a perception that it was well protected against modern threats. But I doubt it was actually enough to make a difference. But we'll see. Simulations posted to youtube clearly demonstrate that the 115mm APFSDS rounds fired by a T-62 are capable of penetrating the Chieftain's frontal armor. But once we have it in Combat Mission we'll see the Chieftain in far more chaotic situations than in those youtube videos, which will result in it getting hit from all sorts of odd angles. So there's a chance that we might actually see some shots fail to penetrate, or only achieve partial penetrations.

[Halmbarte]

Observationally, I do see 125mm fail to pen M60A2s front turret, sometimes. I don't see the A1 or A3 turrets resisting 125mm nearly as often, but that may be my bias at looking at those non-pen hits so closely. 

H

[LuckyDog]

If I'm reading this correctly, could Chieftan have TOGS (thermals), uprated gunnery controls (IFCS), and the L11/A5 barrel for fin/sabot from 1975? If correct, it will be a tough opponent in that timeframe. It's a shame we won't see the Stillbrew (1984) or Challenger 1 (1983). 

[pugstorm]

I went digging on this and as far as I could find the chieftain did not have thermals till later on mark 13 this cia report on tank fire control system (https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp84m00044r000200890001-1) only mentions the mark 5 and 12 having the bar and stroud tank laser sight system and active ir periscopes. chieftain starts on page 45 to 47 lots of stuff on how it works report is from November 1983.

Regards ,

Pugstorm

Note on mobile for this one so formatting may get wack.

[pugstorm]

Edit to above mark 11 not 13

[decimated550]

This is fantastic , a British add on.  Do you think it'll be ready in 2024, or maybe next year? Any crowdsourcing?  i'd pay $60 for supporting it.  would this mean Harriers and Lynxes for air support? How about, "fix bayonets"? haha. 

[Centurian52]

On 8/3/2024 at 4:01 PM, decimated550 said:

This is fantastic , a British add on.  Do you think it'll be ready in 2024, or maybe next year? Any crowdsourcing?  i'd pay $60 for supporting it.  would this mean Harriers and Lynxes for air support? How about, "fix bayonets"? haha. 

They estimated that it would be ready in 2024, but they're not always great at time estimates. They're making a lot of progress, but I don't know how much there is left to do and we're already in the second half of the year. There's also a lot of other (still secret) stuff that they're working on, and only so many of them to work on it. All that said, I'm reasonably confident that if it isn't ready late this year it'll probably be early next year.

I have never heard of Battlefront doing any crowdsourcing.

[FlatEric999]

Six Chieftains drag racing at Operation Market Harborough  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPE4iI4k_gs

I do hope they simulate the Chieftain engine whine in the British add-on

Edited August 9 by FlatEric999

[Vacillator]

On 8/5/2024 at 7:24 PM, Centurian52 said:

I have never heard of Battlefront doing any crowdsourcing.

Me neither, although Fortress Italy was supposedly 'single person sourced'.  I'd like to hear the full story on that one day.

Anyway as for the new stuff, it'll be ready when it's ready .

[JM Stuff]

13 minutes ago, FlatEric999 said:

Six Chieftains drag racing at Operation Market Harborough  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPE4iI4k_gs

 

I do hope they simulate the Chieftain engine whine in the British add-on

Hope that they will crossing our screens home soon, soon (must hope very soon that i pu it two time ! fingers work for the mind hahaha !!) dont worry otherwise we have a lot of expert to reproduce it, thank you to post the link very nice !

Drivers are on the spot...this is not the moment to make mistakes...

Edited August 9 by JM Stuff

[Grisha]

Looking forward to this addition to CMCW! Pushing it back to the bicentennial AND adding British & Canadians. 

[LuckyDog]

It hadn't occurred to me that increasing the timeframe could lead to additional US and Russian kit. Are their formations receiving an update, too? Any insight into what that could be?

Edited Friday at 05:30 PM by LuckyDog