Artkin Posted October 16, 2022 Author Share Posted October 16, 2022 5 hours ago, Ultradave said: Game? (looks like RTFR?) Is there a saved game? Best way to get someone to look at it. Is this mentioned somewhere else where there is more info? (link?) You sound frustrated like this is one that has been going on for years, but I haven't read it (of course I don't read everything in the forum all the time). Dave PS - No way I would walk on top of that causeway myself, under fire or not under fire. I'd be crouching, hopping from one bush to the next, hugging the dirt in between. Yeah it's a modified version of Benpark's Night At The Opera. I just slapped on a guards tank brigade instead of the usual troops. I mentioned this to Elvis previously through the helpdesk, and then I'm pretty sure I whined about it on these forums somewhere before too. Elvis left my ticket hanging after failing to correctly read the problem. He sent me back a test with the wrong units. I tried telling him that they were the wrong vehicles but I never heard back. I stopped checking the helpdesk after 2 weeks or so. Conscript heavy armored cars such as the German 8 wheeled cars, the soviet m3a1 scout car can bog almost right away. This is where I first noticed this behavior. I set up a test with a very long map and I threw a german armored car company. Conditions were very dry. I had multiple armored cars bogging on freaking grass before they made it anywhere near the other side. In general conscript vehicles bog far too often. Admittedly it happens not so often with tracked vehicles obviously due to the reduced ground pressure. In the case I mentioned at 1am today the ground was dry. It makes no sense to me. Did a train just drop off my shermans? Or did they just drive here to the battlefield? If they bog this much then theres no way they drove to the battlefield in one piece. For sure, patience is one of the most important traits a soldier can have. Rushing around is a dangeroud habit. I saw a video of some airborne guys on a exercise while they were passing by a house. I noticed how some looked before they ran, and I noticed some did not. Those poor habits will stay with you, and get you killed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 If you've got a save I'll look at it. I tried several RT QB with terrain from countryside with marshy streams and fences and hills, to city using units you mentioned above as conscripts and in five movement turns for each one and had 1 tank bog for a minute crossing a hedgerow in the countryside. No bogging even crossing the dry streamed. Have you got the save from the pics? Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 16, 2022 Author Share Posted October 16, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Ultradave said: If you've got a save I'll look at it. I tried several RT QB with terrain from countryside with marshy streams and fences and hills, to city using units you mentioned above as conscripts and in five movement turns for each one and had 1 tank bog for a minute crossing a hedgerow in the countryside. No bogging even crossing the dry streamed. Have you got the save from the pics? Dave Sure, now that I'm on my PC I can send you a turn from a PBEM of mine. It's a large file, but it shows how I had 2 M3 scout cars bog on dry grass within a couple hundred meters of their start zone. Here is the PBEM: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/81bo5ue059mco3h/AACDxvQWi-wke1XmdFryfVwDa?dl=0 I usually just run flat tests for this, instead of relying on different maps. I have not noticed any abnormal behavior besides on dry grass. (Though I rarely play with conditions that arent dry purely for cinematic effect... Also I never send vehicles where I think they will bog) I'm currently running a flat test right now with an armored car company, and I just had a Sdkfz 222 bog barely 200m from its start. You should be able to replicate this one easily, but if you want the save for this too, by all means I'll send it. I just ran the scenario 1 minute, so this is the first of many expected boggers. Here's a photo of the 222 incident right now: P.S. I just took a look at the file Elvis had sent me. He chose the correct units for the German side, but told me he chose an armored battalion. So I thought he chose tracked tanks instead of the APCs. He chose tracked tanks for the Soviet side however, which wasn't the M3 scout car, which is what I experienced the issue in. Edited October 16, 2022 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 16, 2022 Author Share Posted October 16, 2022 Another thing, the spotting icons need to chill out. They are VERY disruptive when you have a lot of troops on the field. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 16, 2022 Author Share Posted October 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Ultradave said: If you've got a save I'll look at it. I tried several RT QB with terrain from countryside with marshy streams and fences and hills, to city using units you mentioned above as conscripts and in five movement turns for each one and had 1 tank bog for a minute crossing a hedgerow in the countryside. No bogging even crossing the dry streamed. Have you got the save from the pics? Dave I just threw up two of the offending turns if they are better. I had a m3 immobilized on my first turn and another on the second. (004, and 006) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 I see those 2. I also did what you said, and made a scenario with grass and a whole slew of conscript German armored cars and then a whole bunch of M3 scout cars. Nobody bogged or was immobilized in 5 minutes. Dave 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 If you bug you need to say how many waypoints were plotted. There could be a correlation. Like the AWOL units in Normandy caused by too few waypoints. How often and where you plot matters, the same with vehicles. Player A makes sharp turns player B smooth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 1 hour ago, chuckdyke said: If you bug you need to say how many waypoints were plotted. There could be a correlation. Like the AWOL units in Normandy caused by too few waypoints. How often and where you plot matters, the same with vehicles. Player A makes sharp turns player B smooth. Yeah, I always kind of micromanage waypoints near holes in bocage, or else troops might look for the long way around instead of going through the gap you wanted. Is this a bug? No, I don't think so. Is it fiddly. Sure. But to me it's the equivalent of the platoon leader telling a squad, "Look, see that small gap right over there. I want you to go through that and then follow the left side of the next field to the next hedgerow, and scout for a gap there." Instead of just saying "Go to the next hedgerow" First one gets the real troops and the CM troops to do what you actually intended (or at least attempt to given morale, enemy fire, etc - applies to real and CM). Dave 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) I'm able to replicate this bug in seconds . How is this issue only pertinant to me? You can clearly see I had 2 vehicles bog and then immobilize on turns 1,2. There is an issue here. Does the "extreme" fanaticm and +2 leadership cause vehicles to bog faster? Edited October 17, 2022 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 3 hours ago, Ultradave said: Yeah, I always kind of micromanage waypoints near holes in bocage, or else troops might look for the long way around instead of going through the gap you wanted. Is this a bug? No, I don't think so. When your squad is split across a gigantic map, and the icon is floating above grass (You have to find the angle your troops are on, and then find the straggler) , this is a BUG. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 I just ran another test. 3 companies of german armored cars with different settings. 1 Company Conscript, extreme, +2 1 company conscript normal +0 1 company conscript poor -2 Result before getting to the end of the track: +2 company, 2 psw222 bogged, both immobilized +0 company, 2 psw223 bogged, one immobilized -2 company, 1 psw 223 bogged 2nd pass without exiting scenario: +2 0 boggers +0 2 boggers 1 immobilized -2 1 bogger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 I feel like this guy right now: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) Two bogged boys side by side: Interestingly I've had very few 8x8's bog in this test. I originally noticed the issue with them on the first Tukums scenario converted to conscript (That didn't work out well because the core Russian formation disappeared from the map [But not the editor] with the change in veterancy) Edited October 17, 2022 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey_Fox Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Artkin said: I just ran another test. 3 companies of german armored cars with different settings. 1 Company Conscript, extreme, +2 1 company conscript normal +0 1 company conscript poor -2 Result before getting to the end of the track: +2 company, 2 psw222 bogged, both immobilized +0 company, 2 psw223 bogged, one immobilized -2 company, 1 psw 223 bogged 2nd pass without exiting scenario: +2 0 boggers +0 2 boggers 1 immobilized -2 1 bogger Why is this unreasonable? What makes this a bug? Their off-road capability is rather poor after all. Edited October 17, 2022 by Grey_Fox 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Grey_Fox said: Why is this unreasonable? What makes this a bug? Their off-road capability is rather poor after all. I had 2 m3 scout cars bog on "dry" grass on turns 1 and 2 in the turn I sent dave above. You are free to check it out. Earlier in the thread I had a conscript sherman bog in place on "Dry" ground the very first second I gave it a move order. In the pictures you have replied to, ground conditions are set to "very dry", and I had armored cars bog as soon as 200m. Sometimes more, sometimes less. The rate of bogging is astounding. It's not a small amount by any means. It happens very often. These armored cars have huge tires for a reason. It lowers their ground pressure so they can operate off road. Otherwise, they would have small tires like the Sdkfz 251 halftrack. How the hell is a vehicle going to "immobilize" itself on "very dry" grass to the point where it's unfixable? I'm not discounting that it COULD happen. The rate that is happens is just way, way too high. Edited October 17, 2022 by Artkin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 57 minutes ago, Artkin said: I just ran another test. 3 companies of german armored cars with different settings. 1 Company Conscript, extreme, +2 1 company conscript normal +0 1 company conscript poor -2 Result before getting to the end of the track: +2 company, 2 psw222 bogged, both immobilized +0 company, 2 psw223 bogged, one immobilized -2 company, 1 psw 223 bogged 2nd pass without exiting scenario: +2 0 boggers +0 2 boggers 1 immobilized -2 1 bogger What happens when you change them to say, veteran - all of them? Or something in between? Do you get better results? Or post that save, so I know I'm not creating something that doesn't match what you are doing. Dave 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Ultradave said: What happens when you change them to say, veteran - all of them? Or something in between? Do you get better results? Or post that save, so I know I'm not creating something that doesn't match what you are doing. Dave I'll give it a try and report back soon. Scenario is labeled " T" for fast access. https://www.dropbox.com/s/fhyeolxicz9oa3j/T.btt?dl=0 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Cool. Got it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Ultradave said: Cool. Got it. The veterans did much better. Pass 1 had 1 PSW223 immobilize after 4-500m pass 2 had 1 PSW222 immobilize which was about 1500m of driving Edited October 17, 2022 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Veterans did better in mine. Elite even better. There were several bogs along the way on each but except for one were momentary and the one recovered in less than a minute. Also slowing down to "Move" rather than "Quick" the conscripts did much better. Only two bogs and they recovered in two minutes, where on "Quick" there were 4 bogs in one test and 2 became Immobilized. Another Conscript test on "Quick" though only had one bog. It was eventually immobilized. I don't know how these affect the chances, other than what is in the Engine 4 manual. I *could* see bogging becoming more often for conscripts just from the description of them being raw, lack of training, no experience. Just how good are they at driving? And no ground is perfectly table flat like a football field. Even grass in dry conditions will have local undulations, ruts, a dry dusty soft spot. There is always going to be some non-zero chance. I'll ask about the troop quality and bogging. I'm not convinced this is a problem or a feature of having a unit/crews full of conscripts. The price you pay, so to speak. Dave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkchapuis Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Conscript drivers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 58 minutes ago, Ultradave said: Veterans did better in mine. Elite even better. There were several bogs along the way on each but except for one were momentary and the one recovered in less than a minute. Also slowing down to "Move" rather than "Quick" the conscripts did much better. Only two bogs and they recovered in two minutes, where on "Quick" there were 4 bogs in one test and 2 became Immobilized. Another Conscript test on "Quick" though only had one bog. It was eventually immobilized. I don't know how these affect the chances, other than what is in the Engine 4 manual. I *could* see bogging becoming more often for conscripts just from the description of them being raw, lack of training, no experience. Just how good are they at driving? And no ground is perfectly table flat like a football field. Even grass in dry conditions will have local undulations, ruts, a dry dusty soft spot. There is always going to be some non-zero chance. I'll ask about the troop quality and bogging. I'm not convinced this is a problem or a feature of having a unit/crews full of conscripts. The price you pay, so to speak. Dave I could have sworn Steve wrote a post about speed not affecting bog rate. If anything the higher speed would create less bogging instead of more, seeing how a 9,000 pound vehicle (PSW222) has so much momentum that it would crash through any obstacle on the floor. Driving slow in snow will sometimes get you stuck for this reason. I would be open to believing that this isn't a problem if the terrain was different. Also if it didn't happen so abruptly with vehicles (Within 250 freaking meters). PSW222 and M3 scout cars arent too far off from what would be driven in civilian life. A truck driver might be **** with a rifle but a great driver, not warranting the bump in veterancy to "Regular" A military aged male probably knows how to drive a car, or has some idea of how. So it doesn't make sense to me why these sub 10,000 lb vehicles are especially bog-prone to conscripts. This is especially a problem for me since I find conscripts to be the ultimate CM experience. I hate the borg-like spotting and engaging we typically have with troops. You can wipe a house out entirely with small arms, without ever stepping near it. On conscript this is not the case at all. I think green troops are a better representation outside of urban areas. But in urban areas, conscripts play very much like the footage we have seen from Ukraine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Speed not affecting bogging is forum wisdom, not Steve wisdom. It might be true, but we don't know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, domfluff said: Speed not affecting bogging is forum wisdom, not Steve wisdom. It might be true, but we don't know. People have actually tested this and I take it now in good faith as well. There is no evidence that slower speeds cause less bogging. In the day of beyond overlord the manual said that slow simulated lower gear usage. But in this engine, you can see that going fast through a river crossing the TacAI slows the speed of the vehicle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 59 minutes ago, domfluff said: Speed not affecting bogging is forum wisdom, not Steve wisdom. It might be true, but we don't know. Okay, well I just found something important. Apparently speed does affect bogging. I also found Steve agreeing with what I said earlier about "momentum" " Administrators 35.7k Posted July 21, 2011 As I said, it makes a very big difference in terms of the TC's ability to have the Driver navigate terrain. So my guess is that's why the IDF recommended standing tall in the turret. But there's no way it makes a difference for anything at a distance. You can see this for yourself if you go outside and get on top of a car. Kneel and that's probably about where our guys in CM are at. Then stand up. That's where the IDF guys would be. Notice how you don't get any new information except for the area right around the car. The chance of Bogging goes up with the speed, and of course speed varies by terrain type. These simulate, as best we can, the difficulties of negotiating terrain with speed. If we really did things right we'd have all kinds of unexpected behaviors happen, which would cause people to inform us, with strong conviction, that our game is completely broken and unplayable Steve" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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