Tiger Is vs IS-2s and T-34/85s

[John Kettler]

Though this isn't from Operation Bagration, it is nevertheless a highly useful video and offers some fascinating gaming possibilities. Has as considerable amount of Russian footage I'd never seen, much of which is IS-2s alive and dead.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

[Glubokii Boy]

A scenario covering this is already avaliable - carious at malinava - 

Made by George Mc i belive...Its a very good scenario.

[Vacillator]

5 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said:

carious at malinava - 

Made by George Mc i belive...Its a very good scenario.

Agreed, one of the best for sure.  Worth bigging up @George MC once more .

Edited February 13, 2022 by Vacillator

[John Kettler]

9 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said:

A scenario covering this is already avaliable - carious at malinava - 

Made by George Mc i belive...Its a very good scenario.

Good to know, but I don't own the game. Unless I read about the real fight in Otto Carius's excellent Tigers In The Mud, I knew nothing of this remarkable engagement before seeing the video. Ref the scenario, is it possible to start with the IS-2 crews not inb their tanks? Since a crew can disembark from a tank that's hit and later remount, in theory it should be feasible, but that doesn't make it so.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vacillator]

John, buy the game - you won't regret it (or should I say I didn't it was my first CM title).

IIRC in game the number of IS2s was not that high, there were more T34s.  There are various accounts of what happened and various denials of what happened so I think the game version takes a middle ground (@George MC will I'm sure correct me on this). 

You can of course employ all of the the Tigers straight away if you wish (I did), or play it historically .

Oh and the dismounted start is I think possible @Rinaldi did it recently in his BN Detours scenario (again this is subject to correction).

Edited February 13, 2022 by Vacillator

[John Kettler]

Vacillator,

The issue has nothing to do with wanting CMRT and everything to do with my inability to play CMx2 at all for something like a year now--downstream effects of my TBI ~7.5 years ago. History suggests my brain could suddenly kick back in and routinely high function, but there's no predicting timing. Meanwhile, I've got a stack of CMx2 games already on hand--that I can't play. Appreciate info on feasibility of dismounted start.

Regards,
 

John Kettler

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

14 hours ago, Vacillator said:

Oh and the dismounted start is I think possible @Rinaldi did it recently in his BN Detours scenario (again this is subject to correction).

It's doable for a player controlled force, but not the AI.

AI forces can dismount from vehicles, but they cannot remount.

[George MC]

Thanks for the kudos for the Carius CMRT scenario. That is based on the facts and focussed on the main event and used both German and Russian sources to create the narrative (Note: carius in his account creates a totally fictional and non-corroborated meeting engagement after the encounter at Malinava). The mysterious heavy tank brigade (‘Josef Stalin’) as described by Carius and engaged by the Tigers never existed. In fact the company commanded by Carius was in action against the 41st Tank brigade (T-34 and M3 medium tanks) and the 48th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment, both from the 5th Tank Corps. The first lost some 10 T-34 destroyed at Malinovo/Malinava on 22.07, the latter - 5 IS-2 (sources http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/poteri5tk.shtml).

So 'fraid video gets a huge thumbs down from. A mish-mash of incorrect factoids. Even simple corborotion with Carius' own account would get this half way correct. Such poorly researched slick video productions really boil my piss though - its al clicks and likes and nothing of any substance. The men involved all deserve better, especially the Soviet tankers who were killed in this engagement. For the full Soviet KIA names list scroll down. A key factor in the success of Carius’ unit attack can be attributed to fact that these tank crews of the Soviet 3/41st Tank Brigade were mainly inexperienced reinforcements. The battalion has come up to brigade on the evening of the 21st June 1944. It appears the tank drivers had experience of only 3 hours driving their tanks, whilst many of the officers were inexperienced and not ready for a fast and dynamic close range armoured fight. Anyways the full account and sources is below. The vdieo - meh...

Historical Background

On 22 July 1944, 1st Lieutenant Otto Carius with his company of eight Tigers from sPzAbt (Heavy Tank Battalion)502 advanced towards the village of Malinava.

They had been tasked with halting the spearhead of the Soviet 5th Tank Corps, the tip of 4th Shock Army’s spear, which had cleanly broken through Army Group North’s defences.  

The Soviet 5th Tank Corps during their drive towards Dunaburg/Daugavpils were intercepted by a German assault gun battery (on probability most likely elements from Assault Gun Brigade 912 – although it’s difficult to pin this down with any certainty) around 1200Hrs. 

After a short sharp firefight the Soviet armour brushed aside an attack by the assault guns destroying 7 of the assault guns in the process. 

The Soviet tanks went on to cut the main highway, from Daugavpils to Rossiten in Latvia, at Malinava. Their next objective was the city of Daugavpils to the south. 

As panic stricken German troops fled the area, 2nd Company from the sPzAbt 502 under the command of 1st Lieutenant Otto Carius were tasked with intercepting this Soviet armoured spearhead. After refuelling and re-arming they headed out. On their approach to Malinava they heard the sounds of an armoured battle – the firefight between the Soviet armour and the hapless Stug unit. The Tiger unit stopped behind a slight rise to investigate. 1st Lieutenant Carius, along with Sergeant Albert Kerscher (one of the most decorated commanders of sPzAbt 502) took a Kubelwagen and went on ahead to identify the source of the gunfire. 

Somewhere south of Malinava they bumped into a fleeing army Sergeant who warned them of the presence of Soviet tanks up ahead in the village. He was invited into their kubelwagon and the little group carried on. Just before the village, on a reverse slope they parked and proceeded on foot till about a kilometre from the village. Here Carius observed the Soviets moving into position in Malinava and noticed that several T34s were standing sentry on the southern approach into the village. As Carius watched the Soviet tanks begin to ‘circle the wagons’ a motorcycle approached the south. In it was the adjutant from the ill-fated German assault gun battalion. He confirmed that the firefight Carius had heard was the contact between the assault gun unit and the Soviet tanks now taking up position in Malinava. 

Carius recognized that the Russian tanks in the village were only advance troops waiting for the main force to arrive. He decided to recapture the village with a daring 'coup de main' before reinforcements arrived. He decided to attack the village using only two tanks. 

His reasoning for this approach (as he describes in his book “Tigers in the Mud”) was because the situation was so unclear and, in his judgement, would be too risky for the unit to attack on line. Therefore to avoid risking his other vehicles and crews - six Tigers (under the command of 1st Lieutenant Nienstedt who was new to the unit) remained in reserve while Carius and Kerscher's Tigers moved towards the village of Malinava. Speed was the essence of Carius' strategy, as was his desire to avoid unnecessary casualties.

Entering the village, two T-34/85 tanks were observed rotating their turrets. At that moment, Kerscher's Tiger No.213, trailing Carius, opened fire and knocked them out. Both Carius and Kerscher’s Tigers penetrated into the village where they engaged the other Soviet tanks at close range. Carius recalled that the entire battle lasted no more than 20 minutes - Carius and Kerscher's Tigers knocked out 17 Russian tanks (as claimed by Carius in his account in ‘Tigers in the Mud’) during this brief but violent action. His quick and accurate recognition of the situation and the excellent tactics used were the main factors in the decisive outcome. 

Controversy and Discussion 

These are the key facts. However this action (and the following one Carius describes in his book – Tigers in the Mud’) have gathered some critical views – did this really happen? This link provides some background detail regarding the discussion including some very interesting Russian research by S.Morozov about the action simulated in this scenario and the second event described by Carius in his book: 

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=163515 

The discussion and links provided in this forum were crucial for working out what happened where – especially the detail provided by S.Morozov. 

There are a few points regarding Carius’ account (bearing in mind it was written from memory a long time after the actual events) that the evidence available now to researchers doesn’t corroborate. They are: 

The mysterious heavy tank brigade (‘Josef Stalin’) as described by Carius and engaged by the Tigers never existed. In fact the company commanded by Carius was in action against the 41st Tank brigade (T-34 and M3 medium tanks) and the 48th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment, both from the 5th Tank Corps. The first lost some 10 T-34 destroyed at Malinovo/Malinava on 22.07, the latter - 5 IS-2 (sources http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/poteri5tk.shtml). 

The Soviet brigade commander killed by Carius is a pure fantasy. The most high-ranking Soviet tank officer killed at Malinava on this day was Captain Orlovskiy, CO of the 1st battalion, 41st Tank Brigade (Same source as above). 

The subsequent ambush east of Malinava, in which Carius allegedly destroyed 28 Soviet tanks seems to be a fantasy as well. There are no recorded Soviet tank losses for that day that corroborate the story (or subsequently in the area). However the evidence tallies for the action at Malinava and for it happening reasonably close to Carius’ account of events. 

In Carius’ account there is no mention of the German assault guns being involved in supporting his attack. However there is evidence that indicates that the surviving assault guns from the unit previously engaged by the Soviet tanks, joined in attacking by fire from the north west when the Carius attack went in. It’s also likely they KO’d some of the Soviet tanks claimed by Carius in his book. The evidence of this comes from the German AAR and ironically a German newspaper article about this very action (It can be found as document 18 in "Tigers in the Mud"). Dated 28 July '44, "Review of the War Correspondent Reports - The Bronze Shield". It was written by Herbert Steinert, and it provides some interesting snippets of information. It writes that most Russian tanks were destroyed outside the village (which corroborates well with Morozov's account above and his locations of KO’d Soviet armour in and around Malinava), and here is the interesting part - "Leutnant Carius can chalk up 10 kills for himself, the second "Tiger" had four. Three of the fleeing bolshevist tanks were destroyed by assault guns which had followed the penetration of the tanks." 

A key factor in the success of Carius’ unit attack can be attributed to fact that the tank crews of the Soviet 3/41st Tank Brigade were mainly inexperienced reinforcements. The battalion has come up to brigade on the evening of the 21st June 1944. It appears the tank drivers had experience of only 3 hours driving their tanks, whilst many of the officers were inexperienced and not ready for a fast and dynamic close range armoured fight. 

It can also be speculated that after their victory over the German assault guns that they’d relaxed, or had become overconfident or had perhaps most likely (either because they simply forgot or due to their inexperience) that a vital part of mechanised combat is attentive and alert observation of all arcs that a possible enemy could approach from. Whatever the reasons the young inexperienced Soviet tank crews paid a heavy price – 20 officers and other ranks were killed in the fight. Many were buried by the wrecks of their destroyed tanks on the battlefield. Note: A full list of the Soviet tankers killed at Malinava can be found at 

http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/karius1.shtml 

These discrepancies aside the bold and decisive attack made by Carius and Kerscher was successful and inflicted heavy casualties on the advancing Soviet armour. When playing this scenario I hope you’ll appreciate how much luck played a part in the success of this attack and in both Carius and Kerscher’s survival. It’s an indication of the odds they gave at surviving this fight that after the fighting was over they’d jumped down of their tanks and hugged each other – relief and thanks? 

As Napoleon once said “I know he's a good general, but is he lucky?” On a tactical scale it was a superb display of AFV technology, skill, training and luck by the German Tiger commanders and their crews – notably Carius and Kerscher. Several days later – on the 24th July 1944 Nienstedt went on to display his own prowess in armoured combat commanding Tiger tanks when outside Dunaburg his command of six Tigers knocked 17 out of 20 attacking Soviet tanks, including 2 assault guns. His Tiger alone accounted for 10 enemy tanks. 

Soviet Casualty List for Malinava

This is the casualty list for the Soviet armoured units engaged at Malinava. Unfortunately the information concerning the detail of the Soviet units is very scarce. However these young men died fighting against Nazi Germany so it’s only fitting their sacrifice is remembered.

Source: http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/karius1.shtml

Casualty list for 41 Armoured Brigade July 22 1944

KIA

Officers

Captain I.Moroz;

Captain K.Orlovsky;

Lieutenant P.Prokopev;

Lieutenant N.Ravvinsky;

ml. Lieutenant A. Knorpel;

ml. Lieutenant S. Polozov;

ml. Lieutenant F. Bozhenov. He died in hospital from wounds

ml. Lieutenant A.Egorov.

Sergeants.

St.serzhant M. Cherepanov;

Sergeant M. Averyanov;

Sergeant A. Maslov;

Sergeant S. Melnikov;

Sergeant Efimov;

Sergeant E. Krylov;

Sergeant S.Nemirov,

Loskutnikov ;

mL. Sergeant A. Vinyukov;

ml. Sergeant F. Sokolov . 

Casualty list for the 48 Guards Tank Regiment July 22 1944

KIA

Officers

Guard Lieutenant G. Romazanov.

Sergeants

 St.serzhant A.Mikhailov

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502

During the 502nd battalions’ deployment (22-26th July 1944) on the north side of the Duna River they destroyed 73 Soviet tanks and 24 anti-tank guns for the loss of only four Tigers. 

The mobile operations the unit undertook severely stressed the Tigers mechanical reliability resulting in a 44.5% operational readiness rate for it’s Tigers. Despite this the penetrative qualities of the Tiger’s 88 allowed small numbers of Tigers to destroy large numbers of Soviet tanks, thereby helping delay the Soviet capture of Dunaburg.

Notable ‘aces’ that served with 502 Johannes Bolter (usually credited with 139 destroyed tanks but the exact number is unknown)

Otto Carius (usually credited with 150+ destroyed tanks but the exact number is unknown)

Alfredo Carpaneto (usually credited with 50+ destroyed tanks but the exact number is unknown)

Albert Kerscher (usually credited with 100+ destroyed tanks but the exact number is unknown)

Heinz Kramer (usually credited with 50+ destroyed tanks but the exact number is unknown)

Johann Muller (usually credited with 50 destroyed tanks but the exact number is unknown)

Designers and Research:

Charlie Meconis and ‘George MC’ McEwan.

 References and Sources

 “Tigers in the Mud: The Combat Career of German Panzer Commander Otto Carius”

Personal account of his combat career – it includes a detailed personal account of this action plus an appendix that has original German sources.

 “Otto Carius Meine Dienstzeit”

Photos and stories chronicle Otto Carius entrance into the Wehrmacht as a volunteer, his life as a soldier, and his victories as a Panzer commander for three and a half years on the Eastern Front. Detailed photos and illustrations of his numerous medals, decorations and documents as well as an interview with Otto Carius about his time in the military.

 “Sledgehammers: Strengths and Flaws of Tiger Tank Battalions in World War II”

Useful overview of Tigers in action operationally and tactically. Has a detailed overview of the ‘big picture’ in which Carius’ 502nd Heavy Panzer Battalion were deployed post Operation Bagration.

 Overview of 502nd’s Combat history covering vehicle losses in combat

 http://www.alanhamby.com/unithist.shtml#502

 Interesting discussion, with numerous views and conjecture plus some new evidence regarding the actions described by Carius in ‘The Ambush’ chapter of his book ‘Tigers in the Mud’:

 http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=163515

 Detailed stats and accounts from the Soviet side of the hill. However it’s in Russian and google translate struggles with an easily understandable translation plus brevity is not one of it’s merits

 http://zhurnal.lib.ru/m/marchenko_r_a/poteri5tk.shtml

[Vacillator]

11 hours ago, John Kettler said:

downstream effects

I see, sorry to hear about that John and hope it improves soon.

57 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

It's doable for a player controlled force, but not the AI.

Good point.

9 minutes ago, George MC said:

boil my piss

Thanks for the detailed explanation George.  I had wondered about the '17 IS2s' in the video as it did not tally with what I'd read (and of course played ) before.

[George MC]

2 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

Thanks for the detailed explanation George.  I had wondered about the '17 IS2s' in the video as it did not tally with what I'd read (and of course played ) before.

My pleasure.

Yeah the mysterious heavy tank brigade (‘Josef Stalin’).... that's the bit Carius 'made up'. No two ways about it. Not corroborated by anything - German or Soviet. This video just repeats that pish. Though no doubt allowed the creator to use lots of film of IS-IIs...

Once you take the made-up engagement with this mythical heavy tank brigade out of the story, the fighting at Malinava happened though as Carius describes in his book with him and Kerscher breaking into the village. Casualties (both men and tanks - save for the made up KIA Soviet brigade commander)are pretty bob on - but mainly T-34s with a handful of IS-IIs. Oh and the support Carius received - but does not mention, from the Stug unit.

I'm not taking anything away from the bold and decisive attack made by Carius and Kerscher. They'd no idea they'd survive what they were going into. They'd no idea of the experience of the Soviet tanks, and at clsoer ange their Tigers were every bit as vulnerable as the T-34s.  So I'd also say they were also very lucky in that regard.

It does highlight the difference crew experience and training makes. A few weeks later and the 501st with their new King Tigers received a bit of a kicking from Soviet tank forces with T-34s (mainly 76mm gun armed ones) and IS-IIs. So it's not always about the tank.

[John Kettler]

Vacillator,

Much appreciate your kind words of support and hope!

George MC,

Phenomenal post! Is the whole things from scratch, or is the historical part from the scenario briefing? Either way, I think your post is one of the best I've ever read on the CM Forums.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Amazing how much good some well researched facts can do.

The Truth shall set you free.

[George MC]

11 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Vacillator,

Much appreciate your kind words of support and hope!

George MC,

Phenomenal post! Is the whole things from scratch, or is the historical part from the scenario briefing? Either way, I think your post is one of the best I've ever read on the CM Forums.

Regards,

John Kettler

Hi John

I hope one day you are able to return to playing CM, my best wishes in that regard.

Thank you. The whole account I posted above is part of background PDF Charlie and I created for this mission. The PDF you can find here:

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/60klotf7kwf41bc/Carius at Malinava Historical Background.pdf?dl=0

The info was collated from multiple sources and the detail regarding the Soviet side was all the research of a chap called Marchenko - so my thanks to him for the detailed work (though I see his links to his research are now broken unfortunately).

I'm pleased you enjoyed and found it useful. I have a bug bear about youtube 'history' and some of the downright incorrect stuff that is posted. Good to know this might in some small way counteract the twaddle.

Cheery!

[GhostRider3/3]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:51 PM, John Kettler said:

Good to know, but I don't own the game. Unless I read about the real fight in Otto Carius's excellent Tigers In The Mud, I knew nothing of this remarkable engagement before seeing the video. Ref the scenario, is it possible to start with the IS-2 crews not inb their tanks? Since a crew can disembark from a tank that's hit and later remount, in theory it should be feasible, but that doesn't make it so.

Regards,

John Kettler

That's a great book, "Tigers in the Mud".  But one does wonder about memoirs after so many years.  That being said I believe more docs are coming available from WWII on the Russian side from Berlin.  I somewhat do not trust Russian figures though, but getting both perspectives you can gage what probably transpired factually of sorts.

Edited March 24, 2022 by GhostRider3/3