cesmonkey Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 Quote "As for the supply of lethal weapons to the combat zone, to Ukraine, this would be a very big mistake," Putin said in Hanoi, referring to potential supplies by South Korea. "I hope that this will not happen. If this happens, then we will also take appropriate decisions that are unlikely to please South Korea's current leadership," the Russian leader said without elaborating on specific steps. How does South Korea typically react to threats like this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 22 minutes ago, cesmonkey said: How does South Korea typically react to threats like this? We are about to find out... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 I think back to the Japanese minister in the 1980s who, when asked if Japan could deploy nuclear weapons within a year, replied 'Hmm, perhaps it might take us that long.' 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 (edited) 9 hours ago, The_Capt said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2021/690705/EPRS_BRI(2021)690705_EN.pdf Oh dear, please don't tell me you actually tried to fact check a Trump statement. Edited June 20 by LongLeftFlank 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 2 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said: Oh dear, please don't tell me you actually tried to fact check a Trump statement. Ya, I know right?! We should totally just wrap ourselves in a sweet echo chamber of opinion. I mean who needs fact checking and research when we already know everything already? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 3 minutes ago, The_Capt said: Ya, I know right?! We should totally just wrap ourselves in a sweet echo chamber of opinion. I mean who needs fact checking and research when we already know everything already? Well, I've been reading lately on the Roman Emperor Valentinian I, who was quite the technocrat and displayed an extraordinarily sophisticated understanding of administration and economics, from the crippling shortages of gold and silver for coinage to the fluctuating prices of African grain and wine. On the other hand, he changed the laws in order to be married to a second wife (Empress Justina, a pretty interesting character in her own right), and fed human beings who pissed him off (and there were quite a few) to his pet bears. ....He burst a blood vessel in his brain and died while reaming out a Germanic embassy for informing him that his latest war on the Rhine was the fault of the thuggish son of his prime minister (who himself made his reputation by burning several hundred prominent Romans alive for witchcraft) assassinating their leader at a banquet. So just saying, Imperial leaders got a way to fall yet..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshoot Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 (edited) I don't know enough about it to give an opinion so will leave this here for consideration Admitting Ukraine to Nato would be a mistake for both Ukraine and Nato by Christopher S Chivvis Quote Christopher S Chivvis is a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, where he directs the program on American Statecraft. He served as the US national intelligence officer for Europe from 2018 to 2021. Edit: I don't think he is saying anything new - what is new is that it is coming from someone I assume has some heft in the political world given his resume. Edited June 20 by Offshoot 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, dan/california said: We are about to find out... It ain't a world war yet, but Vladi's trying. Trying real hard. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Offshoot said: I don't know enough about it to give an opinion so will leave this here for consideration Admitting Ukraine to Nato would be a mistake for both Ukraine and Nato by Christopher S Chivvis This one made my blood boil. Their are two alternatives to admitting Ukraine to NATO in the medium term. Putin winning now, and this whole mess restarting a few years after whatever ceasefire is eventually reached. I am really curious which one this guy is for. Edited June 20 by dan/california 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbindc Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 Putin raising the specter of nuclear immolation again. I don’t think that the basic calculus has changed…nuclear weapons use doesn’t get Russia a win and I think that the moment Putin seriously begins to contemplate destroying the world over Ukraine is the moment someone in Moscow puts a bullet in him. My read is that things are going worse for Russia than we think from the outside. Putin making such blatant statements towards South Korea, climbing into bed with Kim almost as a junior partner, basically holding a nuclear gun to his own head…doesn’t read like winning. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danfrodo Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 15 minutes ago, billbindc said: Putin raising the specter of nuclear immolation again. I don’t think that the basic calculus has changed…nuclear weapons use doesn’t get Russia a win and I think that the moment Putin seriously begins to contemplate destroying the world over Ukraine is the moment someone in Moscow puts a bullet in him. My read is that things are going worse for Russia than we think from the outside. Putin making such blatant statements towards South Korea, climbing into bed with Kim almost as a junior partner, basically holding a nuclear gun to his own head…doesn’t read like winning. So fascinating (and disturbing) watching this insanity. Megalomaniac makes bad decision, whole country must die for it because other outcome is so much worse -- megalomaniac might lose face and lose power, oh no! Better that millions die than one psychopath should suffer the consequences of his horrific actions. Some things never change. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Général_Hiver Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 1 hour ago, billbindc said: It ain't a world war yet, but Vladi's trying. Trying real hard. I have vastly expanded our arsenal of very reliable DPRK munitions. South Korea is on a war footing. I remain a master strategist. - Darth Putin, probably 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted June 20 Share Posted June 20 10 hours ago, cesmonkey said: Or maybe not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) Trainload of T-62s(?) with what looks like it might be factory fitted cage armour on the move Boom Edited June 21 by Fenris 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe982 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 If Romania doesn't give it to Ukraine, what would Romania do with it? Defend itself from who? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrano01 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 10 hours ago, The_Capt said: However, the US at a domestic political level - the space of power, narrative and theatre - it has never been comfortable with the label nor responsibility. I have had enough interactions within a bi-lateral government context to say that modern US thinking, at least in higher level governmental circles, is that the US is a reluctant empire at best. "Hegemony" gets tossed around as the favorite word, as "Empire" is too imperial. I think this creates a natural division within the US political landscape. During the 90s I can recall push back on the idea of the US being responsible for global rules enforcement, even though they did it in the end. There is clearly an internally/isolationist impulse held deeply within the US political calculus, and some politicians are exploiting it. I suspect it has always been there. Ooh, I've seen something like this before. We could call the isolationists 'Little Englanders Americaners.' (The cynic might say that the US was born out of a desire to take over the local imperial expansion franchise of British Empire inc. and colonise the natives without London interference but I'm sure purer and more principled motives were to the fore). Sorry, tangent, back to your normal programmes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 53 minutes ago, Fenris said: Trainload of T-62s(?) with what looks like it might be factory fitted cage armour on the move Boom Quote You see these Russian tanks go up like that and wonder if it was hit by a rail gun fired from orbit. Then it turns out it was just a drone ordered from Amazon or some I though this comment was outstanding. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, Général_Hiver said: I have vastly expanded our arsenal of very reliable DPRK munitions. South Korea is on a war footing. I remain a master strategist. - Darth Putin, probably I have this vision of two very large new factories. One of them makes five thousand rounds of 155 per DAY. The other one makes thousands of drones per day that make anything flying in Ukraine currently look Like a biplane compared to a P-51 Mustang. Edit: The Japanese are not exactly going to be doing back flips of joy at the thought of better North Korean missiles either. Edited June 21 by dan/california 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 10 hours ago, billbindc said: I think the way to approach it is that the US thinks its hegemony exists because as a nation it has a superior system...not that it has a superior system because it maintains a hegemony. For a contra example, may I suggest Russia? Long ago someone said something that stuck with me, though I don't remember who it was! The sentiment went something like this: It is not surprising that the US abuses it's power. What is surprising is how little it abuses the power that it has, especially compared to those that came before it or seek to replace it. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesmonkey Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) Quote SEOUL, June 21 (Yonhap) -- South Korea will determine the extent of its arms supply to Ukraine based on Russia's stance toward its relations with North Korea, a presidential official said Friday. National Security Adviser Chang Ho-jin said Thursday South Korea will review the possibility of supplying weapons to Ukraine after North Korean leader Kim Jong-un and Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a pact pledging mutual defense in the event of war. In response, Putin warned South Korea would be making a "big mistake" if it decided to supply lethal weapons to Ukraine. "There are various options for providing weapons, and our position on the recent developments between Russia and North Korea depends on how Russia approaches the situation going forward," the official said in a phone call with Yonhap News Agency. Edited June 21 by cesmonkey 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 They aren'y hitting these nearly as fast as I would like. But I am pretty sure they hitting them faster than they can be fixed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cesmonkey Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Something for the future: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 5 hours ago, billbindc said: My read is that things are going worse for Russia than we think from the outside. Putin making such blatant statements towards South Korea, climbing into bed with Kim almost as a junior partner, basically holding a nuclear gun to his own head…doesn’t read like winning. Absolutely. This is a clear sign of Russian weakness. There's no other explanation for Putin going with hat in hand to get something from North Korea. He didn't have to do that for the container loads of artillery shells he already received. He didn't have to go to Iran to get drones (and before that small arms and body armor). Putin must know that it makes him look weak. Certainly the more informed people watching this play out have said they view it as a sign of weakness (I quoted an article a few pages ago about this). I certainly see no upside to Russia beyond getting more shells, but I do see downsides such as pissing off the South Koreans into sending stuff to Ukraine. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 French Army Chief of Staff General Pierre Schill on the future of the French Army and his views on the future of ground warfare broadly. https://www.yahoo.com/news/small-drones-soon-lose-combat-160900908.html 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolus Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Russian helicopter lost. FighterBomber describes the problem of dealing with combined USV and UAV attacks. The best way to destroy Ukrainian boats is a combat helicopter, but with Ukrainian drones in the air at the same time, the AD systems are activated and have trouble distinguishing friendly and enemy targets. FF incident or rather VF (vodka fire) incident is the result. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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