Petition to equalize QB prices of some similar WW2 tanks

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Larsen said:

US 76mm gun is a gun designed specifically for use in tanks (at least according to wiki).

According to Wiki .It was the same gun as in the Hellcat TD the only difference the Hellcat had HVAP ammo TD stands for Tank Destroyer the 76mm had inferior HE compared to the 75mm Sherman. The pitfall of the 76mm. If you're right you will have no problem convincing BF and have your petition accepted. I think there is more than meets the eye. If you are crazy enough to duel with a Stug III with a Sherman 76 mm you come usually out as second best. I don't know why the Stug III is expensive frankly speaking I am not even interested I go by historical accuracy. Maybe it is expensive because it's role is that of the underdog. When you select a Stug III you know you're going to be outnumbered some people like these scenarios included me. Winning is also not the end all an enjoyable game is. Once I see it is only a Turkey shoot I usually quit. Kind regards and happy gaming

[Redwolf]

8 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

According to Wiki .It was the same gun as in the Hellcat TD the only difference the Hellcat had HVAP ammo TD stands for Tank Destroyer the 76mm had inferior HE compared to the 75mm Sherman. The pitfall of the 76mm. If you're right you will have no problem convincing BF and have your petition accepted. I think there is more than meets the eye. If you are crazy enough to duel with a Stug III with a Sherman 76 mm you come usually out as second best. I don't know why the Stug III is expensive frankly speaking I am not even interested I go by historical accuracy. Maybe it is expensive because it's role is that of the underdog. When you select a Stug III you know you're going to be outnumbered some people like these scenarios included me. Winning is also not the end all an enjoyable game is. Once I see it is only a Turkey shoot I usually quit. Kind regards and happy gaming

It sounds like you should just buy less than your allowance when playing Germans. And not upgrade to Panthers for a meagre 65 points more.

BTW, the M10 and M18 TD gun is very difference from the Sherman gun. The TDs have a slightly changed naval gun, the Sherman 76 have a purpose-designed gun to fit the turret.

[chuckdyke]

21 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

It sounds like you should just buy less than your allowance when playing Germans. And not upgrade to Panthers for a meagre 65 points more.

Way you can play QB differently you liked a scenario and like to replay against a human player. Go to the editor change the name of the map and save it in the QB folder. Do some research and buy the units as you see fit to play against a human player. People bought the game for different purposes. If you replay the game as is it will have spoilers but not if you do it this way. If you don't have Panthers at a certain location and time don't use it. To adjust if you think it is historically not correct rebalance the forces. I honestly can't see what the problem is of you guys.  Your references please here are mine.

U.S. ARMY ARMAMENT RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT AND ENGINEERING CENTER Munitions Engineering Technology Center Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey

This report provides an analysis of the U.S. anti-tank technology during World War II. A ballistic analysis is used to corroborate the battlefield history and gain an understanding of the physical and technological factors that spurred the development of the M1 series 76-mm Gun and family of ammunition. The technical manual (TM) 9-1907 was published 23 September 1944, but it was missing performance data for the 76-mm hyper-velocity, armor-piercing (HVAP) shell and any information for performance of the U.S. anti-tank capabilities against the German Panther tank. Battle history indicates there was a technological capability gap against upgraded Panzer armor. This report attempts to use hand calculations and modeling and simulation (PRODAS) to fill in the information that is missing in TM 9-1907. The analysis offers the reader a greater engineering comprehension of the challenges faced between June 1944 and May 1945 and the circumstances necessitating the rapid fielding of the 76-mm HVAP shell after German capability upgrades were encountered in the European Theater of Operations from Normandy to the Battle of the Bulge (June to December 1944). 15. SUBJECT TERMS Ballistic performance analysis Historic tank ammunition of World War II Lambert-Zukas Thompson PRODAS 76-mm gun M62A1 76-mm armor piercing capped (APC) M93 76-mm hyper-velocity, armor-piercing tracer (HVAP-T) TM 9-1907 Tank Destroyer Armor penetration Panzer IV Panther M4A3E8 Sherman tank M4A3 (76) Sherman tank M4A1 (76) Sherman tank M18 Hellcat Tank Destroyer Limit velocity V50 16. SECURITY CLASSIFICATION OF: 17. LIMITATION OF ABSTRACT SAR 18. NUMBER OF PAGES 55 19a. NAME OF RESPONSIBLE PERSON Jeff Ranu a. REPORT U b. ABSTRACT U c. THIS PAGE U 19b. TELEPHONE NUMBER (Include area code) (973) 724-2733 Standard Form 298 (Rev. 8/98) Prescribed by ANSI Std. Z39.1 

[Redwolf]

wat

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Redwolf said:

wat

Title of my book according to them the Hellcat and the Sherman had the same gun. If you state something as fact you need to give references. I don't suck mine out of my thumb. 

THE 76-MM GUN M1A1 AND M1A2: AN ANALYSIS OF U.S. ANTI-TANK CAPABILITIES DURING WORLD WAR II
Jose Cosme
Jeff Ranu
Shawn Spickert-Fulton
January 2018
 

[Redwolf]

Fine, the M18 has the Sherman gun, not the M10 gun. I just don't see how this is relevant to the price of a StuG versus a 75mm or 76mm Sherman.

[Larsen]

I really don't understand how the origin of the particular gun on a piece of armor has anything to do with its pricing. All the guns have their characteristics. That's it. How it was developed, by whom, for what purposes has really nothing to do with the fact that for combat arms battles StuGs are priced out of the game.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, Larsen said:

StuGs are priced out of the game.

Except for historical accuracy for certain battles. It is a fine combat vehicle it destroyed more allied armor than Tigers and Panthers. Their crews were regarded as Elite they were not even regarded as tanks by the Germans their crew wore artillery uniforms. In regards their prices I can live with it, some guys support a petition to change prices. I would like to know how BF calculate their prices. 

[Larsen]

I have no idea how what you say is relevant to the current discussion.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Larsen

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, Larsen said:

I have no idea how what you say is relevant to the current discussion.

I play for the Devil's Advocate try to find out why the Stug III is expensive. Reason I established that the Hellcat had the same gun as the 76mm Sherman. That is where it stops. The Hellcat had HVAP ammunition possibly better optics and the crew received more specialist training in anti armor gunnery. The same could apply to the Stug III then I get the argument that the Stug III has a casemate fighting compartment. The Germans solved that problem by having what they called cannon fodder on the engine deck. To alert the crew. Stug III was more dependent of having infantry nearby. ***Spoiler***Example  in FB first mission 'Knock them all Down the designer failed to do this. Once spotted the AFV is history, easily outflanked by a Hellcat. The designer could have used a Panther or even a Panzer IV in that scenario. This is another reason why the Stug III should be cheaper it depends on infantry in its proximity. Nevertheless I like using the Stug III makes a more interesting game. I appreciate there are players who like a game in which similar weapons should have the same point system. Possibly we the customers could ask that prices are suggestions only and we could make Quick Battle scenarios as we see fit. Happy gaming

[Larsen]

@chuckydyke, there are basically three simple questions which were raised by Redwolf that have simple yes/no answer.

1. at 299 points do you feel that StuG is overpriced for Quick Battles? Basic Shermans are priced about 195, Pz IV at 240, M4A3 (76) is at around 255 and JPz V is 320, Panther 360. The answer is yes or no.

2. At about 195 points do you believe that the basic Sherman (M4, M4A1) is underpriced for QBs? M4A3 are about 235, Pz IV is about 240. The answer is yes or no.

3. Do you believe that Pz IV at 240 points is slightly overpriced compared to Shermans for the purpose of QBs (M4 is at 195, M4A3W is about 235, M4A3 (76)W is about 255). Yes or no.

That's it very simple. Three answers - yes or no. Or you can say that you don't know and/or don't care. That is also an option.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I don't do Qbs, but it seems utterly wrong that a StuG costs more than a Pz.IV.....I can't think of any reason why it should. 

I guess my calls would be:

Yes

No

No

FWIW

Edited November 11, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[chuckdyke]

1 Yes it should be at least level with the PzIV

2 No if it is not by much.

3 No Pz IV with KwK 75 mm L40 equal to the 76 mm Sherman but has inferior armor. 

I would like to see that the purchase prices are suggestions only. 

 

[Freyberg]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:58 PM, chuckdyke said:

1 Yes it should be at least level with the PzIV

I think no - the Pz IV is a lethal tank at range (I just had a JS-2 KO'd by one - it took the Jerry 5 shots, and I thought the Ivan's armour would give him the edge, but at 1100m the JS didn't get a spot and the 5th shot penetrated) - but the Stug is an SD tougher.

On a suitable map, at a sensible range, a basic M4 is totally out-matched by both Stug and PzIV, and the Stug can definitely take a punch the PzIV can't.

I think the complaints come from:

• guys playing tank battles on infantry battle maps
• players who love Nazi weapons but lack the patience or playing skill to utilise their significant advantages in optics and accuracy

If you can't take advantage of German precision, do what I do, play as Soviets and crush them with sheer force

[Redwolf]

43 minutes ago, Freyberg said:

I think no - the Pz IV is a lethal tank at range (I just had a JS-2 KO'd by one - it took the Jerry 5 shots, and I thought the Ivan's armour would give him the edge, but at 1100m the JS didn't get a spot and the 5th shot penetrated) - but the Stug is an SD tougher.

On a suitable map, at a sensible range, a basic M4 is totally out-matched by both Stug and PzIV, and the Stug can definitely take a punch the PzIV can't.

I think the complaints come from:

• guys playing tank battles on infantry battle maps
• players who love Nazi weapons but lack the patience or playing skill to utilise their significant advantages in optics and accuracy

If you can't take advantage of German precision, do what I do, play as Soviets and crush them with sheer force

So what do you do when fighting infantry?

[chuckdyke]

41 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

So what do you do when fighting infantry?

Artillery is the big killer of infantry, and MG's. 

[Redwolf]

So the two of you would set the price of tanks in CM exclusively based on their anti-tank performance at some specific range (that you didn't specify)?

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Freyberg said:

a basic M4 is totally out-matched by both Stug and PzIV

You need a combination and the 76mm M4 is the tank for the job. I think CM should be a little bit more transparant. 

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Freyberg said:

I think the complaints come from:

• guys playing tank battles on infantry battle maps
• players who love Nazi weapons but lack the patience or playing skill to utilise their significant advantages in optics and accuracy

Have you considered people might just disagree with you? For actual reasons?

Edited November 14, 2021 by Bulletpoint

[chuckdyke]

AI battle plans of Stug III ***SPOILERS*** Knock them All down. Stug III hiding in front once spotted it is history, Chaumont first round Stug III sitting on the crest of a hill. Courage Conquers Stug III again on the top of a crest. All nice maps and the problem with campaigns you can't play against a human player. The Stug III needs to have infantry nearby also putting 2 infantry men on the engine deck is a big help. 

[chuckdyke]

20 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

tanks in CM

Tanks the Stug III is not a tank the fact if they were assigned to a tank unit they may have been used as a tank. Crew received special training and without infantry they are easily outmaneuvered. It was mobile artillery good against infantry in buildings. Playing the games tanks are spotted by infantry in excess of a kilometer without visual aids. Combine a Stug III with an infantry unit and it will spot armor quickly and its gun can do serious damage to any allied tank. It will spot infantry if friendly infantry is nearby. The gun is on par with the US 76mm and its HE I would say superior. The Germans designed purposely made tank-guns in the beginning of the war. The KwK means tank-gun. Its AP slightly less than the PAK75 mm but its HE superior. The Brits did something similar with their 17 pounder and called it the 77 mm. In the best Monty Python tradition they did it in 1945 with the Comet. Happy gaming. The Churchill tank a pillbox on tracks and they don't called it an infantry tank for nothing. Poor in pursuit but an excellent weapon with infantry. How do you let your tanks spot infantry in the game? 

[holoween]

18 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

AI battle plans of Stug III ***SPOILERS*** Knock them All down. Stug III hiding in front once spotted it is history, Chaumont first round Stug III sitting on the crest of a hill. Courage Conquers Stug III again on the top of a crest. All nice maps and the problem with campaigns you can't play against a human player. The Stug III needs to have infantry nearby also putting 2 infantry men on the engine deck is a big help. 

None of this is stug specific but simple afv tactics. So basing pricing on the german side simply always outplaying the oponents is strange.

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Tanks the Stug III is not a tank the fact if they were assigned to a tank unit they may have been used as a tank. Crew received special training and without infantry they are easily outmaneuvered.

So There youre admitting to a stugs disadvvantedge over other (turreted) afvs.

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

It was mobile artillery good against infantry in buildings.

Until it got the long 75mm.

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Playing the games tanks are spotted by infantry in excess of a kilometer without visual aids. Combine a Stug III with an infantry unit and it will spot armor quickly and its gun can do serious damage to any allied tank.

Yes afvs combined with inf works better nothing in favour of the stug specifically.

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

It will spot infantry if friendly infantry is nearby. The gun is on par with the US 76mm and its HE I would say superior.

Do you have anything to back that up?

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

The Germans designed purposely made tank-guns in the beginning of the war. The KwK means tank-gun. Its AP slightly less than the PAK75 mm but its HE superior.

Anything that gets a slight modification to fit inside a tank gets the designatiok kwk even if the actual gun barrel and the rounds fired are identical.

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

The Brits did something similar with their 17 pounder and called it the 77 mm. In the best Monty Python tradition they did it in 1945 with the Comet. Happy gaming. The Churchill tank a pillbox on tracks and they don't called it an infantry tank for nothing. Poor in pursuit but an excellent weapon with infantry. How do you let your tanks spot infantry in the game? 

How is any of that relevant to the discussion?

 

This petition comes from members of a forum playing hvh with capable commanders on both sides. So basic tricks are usually used by everyone. What has come out of it is that noone ever picks stugs if they want to win. They are far more expensive than their combat performance warrants.

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, holoween said:

This petition comes from members of a forum playing hvh with capable commanders on both sides.

I said it before we only can guess how BF calculates the prices of AFV's. I have a few years experience in playing this game and observe a pattern when using a Stug III. A 76mm Sherman needs support from the platoon it is part of. Otherwise it will come out bad. With the Stug III you need to look at tactics to make it effective. The Germans put the gun in a casemate on tracks and gave the crew specialist training using high grade optics. I wish people to have fun playing the game, and should have a say of how the prices are calculated. 

[Redwolf]

Just now, chuckdyke said:

A 76mm Sherman needs support from the platoon it is part of. Otherwise it will come out bad. With the Stug III you need to look at tactics to make it effective. The Germans put the gun in a casemate on tracks and gave the crew specialist training using high grade optics.

Are you saying the StuG spots better in CMx2? Because there has never been a shred of evidence of that. And we had plenty of spotting research threads just this summer and fall.

 

[holoween]

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

I said it before we only can guess how BF calculates the prices of AFV's.

Yes and the point were making is that whatever way theyre currently doing it leads to the stug being too expensive.

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

I have a few years experience in playing this game and observe a pattern when using a Stug III. A 76mm Sherman needs support from the platoon it is part of. Otherwise it will come out bad.

That isnt exclusive to the sherman. Every tank works best when given spotting information be it from the platoon or supporting units and afvs always work best when massed.

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

With the Stug III you need to look at tactics to make it effective.

If i have to be better than the oponent to have equal chances my kit is worse and should therefore cost less.

1 minute ago, chuckdyke said:

The Germans put the gun in a casemate on tracks and gave the crew specialist training using high grade optics. I wish people to have fun playing the game, and should have a say of how the prices are calculated. 

I havent been able to observe an accuracy difference between pz4 and stug.