Vacillator Posted May 14, 2022 Share Posted May 14, 2022 Very nice George . Hope the family stuff is okay... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky_Strike Posted May 15, 2022 Share Posted May 15, 2022 Seconded, very atmospheric, looking forward to seeing this one in the flesh ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danfrodo Posted May 15, 2022 Share Posted May 15, 2022 there is simply nothing cooler in all of mechanized warfare than panzergrenadiers riding forward in those sports car lookin' german halftracks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted May 31, 2022 Author Share Posted May 31, 2022 Well one Soviet AT attack plan done (Alpha version). This version is the bare bones attack framework. it does not take into account what the enemy (German) player may do. The Alpha version is mainly to check co-ordniation and timings. I always seek to attempt to get the AI plan to 'beat' the other side but running through it but not giving the other side any orders. If my AI plan can rinse the static player its a good indication the human player will have to 'do stuff' to prevent being beat. Now thats not always the case (depends...) but its a useful indicator to the AI plan effectiveness. This shows the infantry echelon going into the attack. The assault group is somewhere up ahead... The assault group dying their thing. The German grunt's eye view of impending doom... I'm now playing against my own AI plan to check how it copes with the other side throwing a spanner in the works. This will give me some insight into how I'll need to either adapt the Alpha AI plan to take into account likely COAs by the enemy player and/or provide suitable encounters - which mat mean tweaks to the overall framework. The constraint in this scenario given its a historical one (and one I have a lot of granular detail about) is making the scenario work but remaining true as much as i can - usual caveats apply - to the actual course of events. In truth it'll always be a compromise as the actual fighting and the Soviet attacks lasted a day. I'm focussed on an initial 2 hour slice. Now me attempting to screw up my own AI plan. Yes, well nothing to see here. Must be hot in the tank... Right lets try sneaking up on them. “Over!” That's better! On a roll now! The above attack I'm using as its basis the actual initial German countermoves. Which saw a swift armoured counterattack by Wiking Panthers which KO'd 12 Soviet tanks and KIA a lot of attacking infantry in the vicinity of Hill 107n just outside Jasienica. In RL this was a very short lived success. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 Very nice George. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 I like the atmosphere of brooding heat and danger, George. Great pictures. I also like the impression of emptiness and loneliness of the battlefield, from the view of those Panzergrenadiere. Must have been pretty discouraging from time to time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted June 1, 2022 Author Share Posted June 1, 2022 7 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said: I like the atmosphere of brooding heat and danger, George. Great pictures. I also like the impression of emptiness and loneliness of the battlefield, from the view of those Panzergrenadiere. Must have been pretty discouraging from time to time. Excellent - that's was i was aiming for Aye these guys were in battalions the size of companies and thus defending 1km frontages with around 150 men. They were steamrollered or by-passed... Not many of them survived the next 24-36 hours. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 Interesting when running these historical actions via CM. I've worked out a good position to KO advancing Soviet armour without taking much return fire. Possible this was same position taken up by 7 Kompanie when they KOd 12 enemy tanks? One Panther not so lucky but boit further forward (see right background)... One of the things in this action was the Soviets used their aircraft in CAS - this was noted by the Germans as being a new thing. Top tip for CM - keep your AA assets close! AI Plan after this playthrough required tweaking. Mainly because of what you can see in the above screenshot. I've also added some triggers for the Soviet AI to counter most likely German COA. Now to see if they work! 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) Great shots George . There's a lot of smoke on the horizon . I have just played @benpark's Baranovichi by PBEM and one of the units I enjoyed the most (in amongst my lovely Panthers) was a Mobelwagen fighting in ground role - it survived to tell the tale as well. Edited June 13, 2022 by Vacillator 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 hour ago, George MC said: Interesting when running these historical actions via CM. I've worked out a good position to KO advancing Soviet armour without taking much return fire. Possible this was same position taken up by 7 Kompanie when they KOd 12 enemy tanks? One Panther not so lucky but boit further forward (see right background)... One of the things in this action was the Soviets used their aircraft in CAS - this was noted by the Germans as being a new thing. Top tip for CM - keep your AA assets close! AI Plan after this playthrough required tweaking. Mainly because of what you can see in the above screenshot. I've also added some triggers for the Soviet AI to counter most likely German COA. Now to see if they work! Out of likes for today, George, but love those screenshots. The upper screenshots looks like a great turkey shoot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Talking about Panther tanks, guys.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 2 hours ago, George MC said: AI Plan after this playthrough required tweaking. Mainly because of what you can see in the above screenshot. I've also added some triggers for the Soviet AI to counter most likely German COA. Now to see if they work! Looks sweet ! Getting an attacking AI to maintain its cohesion when it comes under player fire is a tricky thing imo... If the player plays the way you 'want' him to it is quite uncomplicated but if he throws in the odd suprise things become somewhat more difficult for the AI to cope with the situation. Particulary the timings have a tendance to get screewed up by player fire i have found... What options do you prefer to try and mitigate this 'complication' ? Do you use all tools avaliable (game-clock, triggerzones, AI-order triggers) or have you found that you can solve the problems with perhaps one or two of the avaliable options ? I tend to use all three but doing so requires A LOT ! of bookkeeping in order to keep track of all the AI-order - Exit before Aftter combinations and Triggerzones - Exit before after combinations... Its ,tricky imo...but kind of satisfying when you get it to work fairly well Imo that is what you usually are able to do...Looking forward to this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said: Looks sweet ! Getting an attacking AI to maintain its cohesion when it comes under player fire is a tricky thing imo... If the player plays the way you 'want' him to it is quite uncomplicated but if he throws in the odd suprise things become somewhat more difficult for the AI to cope with the situation. Particulary the timings have a tendance to get screewed up by player fire i have found... What options do you prefer to try and mitigate this 'complication' ? Do you use all tools avaliable (game-clock, triggerzones, AI-order triggers) or have you found that you can solve the problems with perhaps one or two of the avaliable options ? I tend to use all three but doing so requires A LOT ! of bookkeeping in order to keep track of all the AI-order - Exit before Aftter combinations and Triggerzones - Exit before after combinations... Its ,tricky imo...but kind of satisfying when you get it to work fairly well Imo that is what you usually are able to do...Looking forward to this one. Cheers ta. Aye creating a plausible AI attack is a challenge. I'm not sure I have all the answers and at the end of the day have to work within the confines of the game engine editor and associated tools. I accept the AI in the current CM with the AI plan tools available will never react to changes in circumstances like a human. Though in saying that in PBEMs I have seen and done some daft crap that would shame the AI if it did the same thing so... Specifically with this scenario. I know how the Soviet attack went in as have the Soviet primary source and German AARs that corroborate it. So the intent was to create a plausible Soviet attack by the AI. Not fancy or clever or be able to react to the players every move but to make the player think - "Yikes! this is what it was like?!" Then attempt to do their best. In this case if the German player screws up the timings by timely action then its a good thing. It buys em time. Thats what the Germans attempted to do for real. What I test the plan for initially is basic timings. i.e. ensure without any hindrance from the other side the AI attack will progress. I'm especially looking that if the player does nothing they will lose. So the basic AI should work. This involves testing in phases to ensure each part of the plan works as intended. Its time consuming and real detail work but pays off. Note the most AI units don't have loads of orders. most units in this only have 16 orders, many less. Micromanaging stuff is where the issues arise. i trsut the AI generally to do the best thing. testing seeks out the times it does weird stuff. Oh aye bookkeeping. I sue Ecel spreadsheet paper printouts (update with pencil) as I find that sueful for quickly noting stuff down and rubbing out. Overall plan though i keep track off by using windows whiteboard: Once I have the bare bones, co-ordinated attack running well i.e.evrything works like clockwork I then play against it. here I'm seeing how the human player might check the plan. I smooth out obvious AI issues like units stopping in full view etc, co-ordinate fires etc. Once that is done I'll start to add triggers and now use some units as reaction forces. Again i can't account for every player action but I can attempt broad brush strokes to counter most approaches (terrain plays a large part here - once you check out the terrain the player might have limited options to 'do stuff'). This is all in the realms of art really and lots of replaying over and over. No short cuts. Even then some player or other will come up with a novel approach. Playtesters come in at this stage. From playtests I can find what novel ways player tackle the scenario and if they come up with effective novel ways I might see how I can tweak the AI plan to make that novel approach more problematic. At the end of the day players always find appraoches i'd never envisage or the AI plan can counter. good on them. As an aside I did the AI plans for the NTC campaign and its being insightful seeing how players tackle these. Many 9the successful ones0 used novel approaches I'd never consider ( in some early playetsing we'd to make some mountain terrain more impassable as someone managed tod rive AFvs pretty high up the mountains...). So aye good playtesters are worth their weight ten fold. So aye the challenges you outline I have to work my way around also and I use some or all of the AI editor options available. But in large scenarios (this one uses two attacking Soviet tank brigades and two rifle regiments (all under strength so around a battalion plus tanks and battalion of infantry spread across a large map) so to make it work the plan and timings had to be kept simple as). In smaller scenarios I'll use more of the available tools. The irony is small scenarios are harder to do AI plans for than large scenarios! Hope this helps? Cheery! Edited June 14, 2022 by George MC 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 Many thanks for your detailed answer . 18 hours ago, George MC said: The irony is small scenarios are harder to do AI plans for than large scenarios! I tend to agree ...Many times the same goes for the map creation imo. Larger (huge) maps usually takes longer to make but with smaller maps every little detail is more important. With large, huge maps if you paint a fairly realistic looking map the game play will often work quite well 'by it self'...With smaller maps the designer needs to pay more attention to very little detail. One of the true masters of designing small maps is Seinfeld Rules imo...He usually manges to make these small maps very intresting. When it comes to your maps...what makes them truely OUTSTANDING is that you usually manges to add this level of detail to pretty much every aprt of even your huge maps....I'm very ,very much impressed by them.... The mapeditor truely taken to its limits ...Having very high quality maps help a great deal with the imersion i get when playing a scenario...It truely makes a diffrence imo... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 1, 2022 Author Share Posted July 1, 2022 Testing the AI plan continues. Made a few tweaks to the Soviet OOB and associated AI plan. Its getting there. Takes a while to test the thing though. Some close ups from the Soviet side. From the German side I decided to recreate Fleugal's counter-attack, supported by a SPW company from III./ "Germania" at Jasienica. An unhorsed Panther crew picked up by an SPW get in on the action! Not so good for one unlucky Soviet defender/attacker... 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 13, 2022 Author Share Posted July 13, 2022 Been mucking about with video stuff. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim1954 Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 That looks pretty similar to what I am seeing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 13, 2022 Author Share Posted July 13, 2022 5 hours ago, Jim1954 said: That looks pretty similar to what I am seeing. I daresay you are trying the same approach I am trying in my own playtest 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim1954 Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 1 hour ago, George MC said: I daresay you are trying the same approach I am trying in my own playtest Just trying to survive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 Loving this @George MC and @Jim1954. It looks great and as I'm not testing it I can watch from afar. After a short break in beautiful Greece (just back) I can look at other things, like Rakow. Too late I'm sure but I was having fun so why not... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakuza44 Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 Hello. these panther photos as well as aerial photos were posted by me. I live in Tłuszcz. greetings http://mazowieckie.fotopolska.eu/1329965,foto.html?a=1761&b=1686&c=0 link foto 1944 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 30, 2022 Author Share Posted July 30, 2022 (edited) On 7/24/2022 at 3:20 AM, jakuza44 said: Hello. these panther photos as well as aerial photos were posted by me. I live in Tłuszcz. greetings http://mazowieckie.fotopolska.eu/1329965,foto.html?a=1761&b=1686&c=0 link foto 1944 Ah brilliant - thanks for sharing these I managed to access similar photos via the NCAP website https://ncap.org.uk/frame/24-1-2-379-363 Re the KOd Panthers did you find any info about what unit they belonged to? I must admit this was one aspect of the action on the 18 August 1944 i was struggling to reconcile as German accounts whilst noting some losses did not mention near a whole company of panthers KOd. BUT Fluegal's unit did lose several and were in position whilst Soviet infantry advanced past them. I did wonder if the image's showing the Panthers was actually photos of Fluegal's unit laying 'possum' till they made good their escape later that night. Edited July 30, 2022 by George MC 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakuza44 Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 Hej , z tego co wiem do Jasienicy tego dnia 18 sierpnia broniła 7 i 8 kompanii dywizji pancernej Wiking . Podczas odwrotu w stronę miasta Tłuszcz pantery tych kompani wpadły w zasadzkę i stracili 9 panter podczas przejazdu pod wiaduktem, następne 5 panter stracili nad ranem też w Jasienicy . Ciężko nazwa do Twojej kompanii sprzedaży na pantery . Żartować. Na polach iw rzece wspólnych elementów po tych czołgach. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakuza44 Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 https://seryjvolk.livejournal.com/140101.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakuza44 Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 To też z Jasienicy. Pantera Wikinga . https://youtu.be/FCrfculO5Io 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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