Heart of the Dying Sun - WIP

[Ithikial_AU]

For a moment there I thought they were Dragon's Teeth and thought oooh that would be cool, then realised we lack that type of obstacle in CM2.  Haystacks... I feel sorry for you already George.

[George MC]

Ha! Ha! Thank you

Yeah I’ve got a technique for adding em. Still slow but means minimum faff. Luckily they are waaay down the to do list in this project. I’m keeping open an option of trimming the map so don’t want a load of flavour objects shifting if I do!

[Aragorn2002]

10 hours ago, George MC said:

 

Interesting pictures, George. May I ask where you found them?

[George MC]

1 minute ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Interesting pictures, George. May I ask where you found them?

These were from a facebook group and appear to have originated on a Chinese instagram post! I’ve tried reverse image search but to no avail. I can’t find aerial image on NCAP but it must be somewhere out there. As I said it’s an interesting series as it is evidence that the Wiking attack ran into trouble but no German or Soviet source verifies this.

The video shows burning panthers but no idea of provenance though some of the shots tie in with the photos. 

I know for sure one Panther was defo lost in this area after crew blew themselves up… others were KOd during their withdrawal overnight. Interestingly the number of Panthers corroborates with the number of Panthers that Flügel’s immediate command had by end of the day - and before their attempt to withdraw.

I’ve not research these images in detail - just don’t have the time - but it’s an interesting puzzle they pose. I’ve had comms with Douglas Nash who has the unit war diaries and no mention of the unit being ambushed and losing eight Panthers. 
 

Flügel’s surviving Panthers did make it out minus a few and immediately went back into action. This corroborated by both German and Soviet sources. Yup. Puzzling. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Magnificent work. 

13 hours ago, George MC said:

He! Aye, yup if I was having my future foretold it be - “ I see haystacks…thousands of haystacks!”

It all seems so easy until you start rotating & cloning them.....Then you press Ctrl instead of Alt or Shift and the swearing starts! 

& Posters!  Don't even get me started on posters! 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Falaise]

12 hours ago, George MC said:

Flügel’s surviving Panthers did make it out minus a few and immediately went back into action. This corroborated by both German and Soviet sources. Yup. Puzzling. 

I don't know the story at all...
But I can only see one valid explanation: there was another unit in the area!
  it is a great classic of  diarys of the ss units which neglects to indicate the presence of other unit at their side.

Great your scenario and wonderful work

[George MC]

1 hour ago, Falaise said:

I don't know the story at all...
But I can only see one valid explanation: there was another unit in the area!
  it is a great classic of  diarys of the ss units which neglects to indicate the presence of other unit at their side.

Great your scenario and wonderful work

Thank you

Yeah that’s one avenue to check. 3SS were on Wiking right flank. That area is right on their boundary. Just not had the time to double check. But it’s also where Flügel’s unit was. Interesting wee puzzle. 

[George MC]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Magnificent work. 

It all seems so easy until you start rotating & cloning them.....Then you press Ctrl instead of Alt or Shift and the swearing starts! 

& Posters!  Don't even get me started on posters! 

 

I’m seeing long narrow fields when I close my eyes just now…

oh posters… yeuch. Share your dislike!

[Aragorn2002]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:24 AM, George MC said:

These were from a facebook group and appear to have originated on a Chinese instagram post! I’ve tried reverse image search but to no avail. I can’t find aerial image on NCAP but it must be somewhere out there. As I said it’s an interesting series as it is evidence that the Wiking attack ran into trouble but no German or Soviet source verifies this.

The video shows burning panthers but no idea of provenance though some of the shots tie in with the photos. 

I know for sure one Panther was defo lost in this area after crew blew themselves up… others were KOd during their withdrawal overnight. Interestingly the number of Panthers corroborates with the number of Panthers that Flügel’s immediate command had by end of the day - and before their attempt to withdraw.

I’ve not research these images in detail - just don’t have the time - but it’s an interesting puzzle they pose. I’ve had comms with Douglas Nash who has the unit war diaries and no mention of the unit being ambushed and losing eight Panthers. 
 

Flügel’s surviving Panthers did make it out minus a few and immediately went back into action. This corroborated by both German and Soviet sources. Yup. Puzzling. 

There's also the possibility these pictures are tampered with. Wouldn't be the first time. But if they are genuine there's indeed a puzzle to be solved.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[George MC]

2 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

There's also the possibility these pictures are tampered with. Wouldn't be the first time. But if they are genuine there's indeed a puzzle to be solved.

Yeah as I said not looked into it in great detail.

But what I know from both German and Soviet sources is there was noted or mentioned mass killing of German Panthers tanks on the 18 August 1944 in and around Tluszcz. There was more intense tank fighting on the 19 but this was further north of Tluszcz (in and around Kruze and Kozly) and involved Wiking and Totenkopf armour primarily. Neither the Totenkopf war diary or the Wiking war diary note heavy casualties of Panthers in one small locale, though both units took some small losses in Panthers but nowhere near the eight shown in the photo.Soviet war diaries (this fighting mainly involved elements from the 8th Guards Tank Corps) don't mention a mass killing of Panthers but no record German armoured attacks which ties in with the German primary sources.

But the terrain shown in the images does appear to tie in with the locale I have highlighted in the above period map excerpt (which is 1:25,000 scale) but not the number of knocked out Panthers. As does the video.

FYI Fluegel's kampfgruppe on the 18 August had I estimate 12 tanks operational (1 Panther earlier in the afternoon blew up - Fluegel believed the crew after having run out of ammo and surrounded by Soviet infantry had blown it and themselves up). Three tanks were KOd during the breakout with nine managing to breakout. The II./SS-Pz.Rgt 5 Battalion Adj.  Schiker was badly injured when his Panther drove into a crater in the early hours of the 19th and was subsequently destroyed. Two others were KOd by Soviet action - one by AT gun and one by tank hunter detachment. But all these were at different locations although close to or around Tluszcz.

So yeah no idea about the eight burning Panthers shown in the video - I guess could be propaganda shot and the Soviets hauled a load of abandoned or already KOd Panthers and set fire to them. That has some agency as the video shows civilians walking past the KOd panthers. Given even on the 19 Aug this was a very active and confused battleground I'd be surprised at civilians a/ being the area (as many/most had been moved out by the Germans earlier) and b/walking casually along that railroad as this was the main attack sector for Soviet units so be a risky place to stroll along for lots of reasons.

Just to muddy the waters a facebook group who have been Iding and matching images of Wiking Panthers to the corresponding number of tank tentatively ID the foreground tank (II01 befehlpanther) as having belonged to the II./SS.Pz.Rgt 5 stab by matching distinguishing features. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/703371800589703/permalink/868394734087408

So if propaganda it would mean taking stills of the Panthers and an aerial image plus filming it so all seems a lot of trouble for a propaganda shot though?

Still its an interesting wee puzzle.

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

There's also the possibility these pictures are tampered with.

The commanders cupola is open? If it was penetrated from the flank he wouldn't have been able to get out.

Edited November 13, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Aragorn2002]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

 

So if propaganda it would mean taking stills of the Panthers and an aerial image plus filming it so all seems a lot of trouble for a propaganda shot though?

I agree. But we don't know the origin of these pictures. Perhaps the tampering has been done recently. The knocked out tanks are very close to each other, which somehow doesn't seem right. 

Having said that, Wiking together with Totenkopf bore the brunt of the fighting and both divisions suffered heavily. And the number of tanks in a Panzer division often dwindled from 80 or 90 to a couple of dozen or even less. There's still so much we don't know. 

Perhaps the Germans themselves collected these tanks from the battlefield to repair them? Doesn't explain the burning tanks, so probably not.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[Aragorn2002]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:57 PM, Erwin said:

What is very much appreciated with all your maps George is that they allow for long range combat - 2Km+ LOS is quite normal in your scenarios and campaigns.

Killing fields...

[benpark]

There are no tracks in front of the Panthers on the aerial, which would tend towards them getting there under their own steam (for whatever purpose).

[Aragorn2002]

2 minutes ago, benpark said:

There are no tracks in front of the Panthers on the aerial, which would tend towards them getting there under their own steam (for whatever purpose).

Good observation!

[Lille Fiskerby]

On 10/29/2021 at 12:22 PM, George MC said:

The name is my WIP reference name and refers to a rather confused action around the village of Jasienica and the town of Tluszcz in Poland mid August 1944.

This map looks stunning. Permission to use it once its finished for a campaign im working on ? ...... please 

[George MC]

23 minutes ago, Lille Fiskerby said:

This map looks stunning. Permission to use it once its finished for a campaign im working on ? ...... please 

Thank you.
 

He! Aye for sure.
 

Once it’s released as I’m using it fir something myself   it’ll be a wee while though. Still a long ways to go. 

[George MC]

20 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I agree. But we don't know the origin of these pictures. Perhaps the tampering has been done recently. The knocked out tanks are very close to each other, which somehow doesn't seem right. 

Having said that, Wiking together with Totenkopf bore the brunt of the fighting and both divisions suffered heavily. And the number of tanks in a Panzer division often dwindled from 80 or 90 to a couple of dozen or even less. There's still so much we don't know. 

Perhaps the Germans themselves collected these tanks from the battlefield to repair them? Doesn't explain the burning tanks, so probably not.

Yup origin and provenance of the images is unknown. The provenance of the location they are from uncertain. Whilst the terrain (certainly the aerial image) fits with the location I’ve marked on the map (I used at least three bits of terrain/map info to verify the terrain), so I’m 90% sure it is where it is, or happenchance it fits… 
 

This sector very quickly became a combat zone as the Soviet offensive steamrollered, outflanked or ground down the German defenders who were in effect fighting a series of delaying actions. Flügel’s unit had pulled back over 30km in one day. 
 

Number of tanks and location is easily verifiable for 3 and 5 WSS panzer regiments. I have the war diaries. I can’t find any mention either unit lost a company worth of Panthers on that day or another day  the only mass loss was elements from Wiking’s I battalion who ended up surrounded and stuck in a marshy area losing their surviving AFVs  but these were Panzer IVs and some Stugs  

Soviet units and actions/location  also verifiable as I have the Soviet war diaries. 
 

So there is a lot of info from both sides. None of which explains the images or video and the alleged location. But at least one of the tanks has been identified as belonging to Wiking (see above facebook group link).
 

The backstory is they - the Panthers - were ambushed. Assuming the location is correct it is possible they could have been engaged by Soviet forces from their left flank. 8th Guards Tank Corps came rolling in from that side. The terrain is ideal for tanks as it’s a land bridge through low laying boggy terrain.
 

The Panthers were advancing along a narrow corridor so the formation extended column echeloned right would fit. 

Just neither side mentions this happened and Wiking had its three Panther companies in action the next day.
 

It’s very strange so something is not right here. Given the written evidence does not corroborate this tank loss, the assumption is the location whilst it appears to be near Jasienica/Tluszcz and seems to tie in with the terrain there, is actually not there and the similarity is coincidental?

I’m stumped though! I’d be happier if it all tied together!

[Aragorn2002]

Well, perhaps it did happen, but was excluded/erased from the German war diary. Doesn't explain why the Soviets don't mention it. 

Or perhaps some Chinese wizz kid has been creative with photoshop.  It's a mystery, life is full of them.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Aragorn2002

[Lille Fiskerby]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

He! Aye for sure.

FWIW if it can help you, my OOB of 8th Guards Tank Corps in august 1944:

8^th Guards Tank Corps:

58^th Guards Tank Brigade: Lend lease M4 “Emcha” tanks.

59^th Guards Tank Brigade: Lend lease M4 “Emcha” tanks.

60^th Guards Tank Brigade: T34-85 tanks.

28^th Guards motorized Rifle Brigade.

6^th Guards Motorcycle Battalion: 9 x Valentine tanks or T34-76; ? x SU-57.

269^th Guards Mortar Regiment: 120 mm. mortars

62^nd Guards (heavy) Tank Regiment: 14 x IS-2 heavy tanks, 3 x captured Panther tanks commanded by Lt. Sotnikov.

301^st Guards SU-Regiment: SU-85

1817^th SU-Regiment: SU-76M

? attached ? 347^th SPA Regiment: ISU-122

[Lille Fiskerby]

This web-side has the Red Army OOB 1944 (in russian):

boevojsostavsa1944.pdf (soldat.ru)

[George MC]

Cheers ta but I have the war diary from the link you posted. I’ve translated it via DeepL so have the OOB and their actions on the time period I’m working on. It’s a contributory factor as to why this KOd eight Panthers is a bit of a conundrum. 

[George MC]

24 minutes ago, Lille Fiskerby said:

FWIW if it can help you, my OOB of 8th Guards Tank Corps in august 1944:

8^th Guards Tank Corps:

58^th Guards Tank Brigade: Lend lease M4 “Emcha” tanks.

59^th Guards Tank Brigade: Lend lease M4 “Emcha” tanks.

60^th Guards Tank Brigade: T34-85 tanks.

28^th Guards motorized Rifle Brigade.

6^th Guards Motorcycle Battalion: 9 x Valentine tanks or T34-76; ? x SU-57.

269^th Guards Mortar Regiment: 120 mm. mortars

62^nd Guards (heavy) Tank Regiment: 14 x IS-2 heavy tanks, 3 x captured Panther tanks commanded by Lt. Sotnikov.

301^st Guards SU-Regiment: SU-85

1817^th SU-Regiment: SU-76M

? attached ? 347^th SPA Regiment: ISU-122

FYI Re the 6 Guards Motorcycle Battalion I put together this 
• AFVs available 17/8/44(source Pamyat Ruda):
8 x M4A2
5 x M3A1
2 x BA-64
2 x SU-57
4 x 57mm AT guns

I’ve got Sharps books but they appear at odds with the new on-line stuff which is linked to original primary sources. Amazing what you can access now at the click of a mouse!

[Vergeltungswaffe]

On 11/13/2021 at 7:34 AM, Aragorn2002 said:

The knocked out tanks are very close to each other, which somehow doesn't seem right. 

 

Whenever I finish a CM scenario and see AFV's knocked out in close proximity to one another, I'm always reminded of the top picture in particular on THIS page.

[Falaise]

2 hours ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Whenever I finish a CM scenario and see AFV's knocked out in close proximity to one another, I'm always reminded of the top picture in particular on THIS page.

They were not destroyed there, but gathered in this field after the fighting !