Heart of the Dying Sun - WIP

[George MC]

8th Guards Tank Army in its assembly area. Foreground unit is part of the 59th Guards Tank Brigade. “M3A1 x 2; 10 x T-34; 21 x M4A2. Tank battalions were brought together into one battalion” ref 8th Guards Tank Corps AAR 17/8/1944.

I'm not sure this will be the final force used in the scenario. I'm still untangling the actual course of events and how they went into action. The AAR I have shows them going in as a column so the assumption is they went in as deeply echeloned formation (which would tie in with doctrine) and also accounts for some of the early contact they made with the German armour in this sector. The rifle regiments from the 76th Guards seem to have broken the German lines (pretty quickly) so the armour went in by around mid-day to late afternoon BUT German account mention one armoured engagement in the morning where they KOd 12 'tanks'.

The 8th Guards Tank Corps had been pretty badly mauled by this stage was way understrength. So whilst it sounds a huge unit its actually comparatively small and easy handled in CM terms. The 75 Rifle Division attacked into this sector with two Rifle Regiments - though at moment unsure of their exact strength. Suspect be reduced given been in combat for a while so most likely 70% or even lower.

A zoomed out view showing the whole 8th Guards Corps including SU regiments. NOTE: 60th Guards Tank Brigade not shown as they came into action the following day from what I can gather.

Facing them were one German battalion (202 men) and elements from Wiking's Panther battalion with around 22 Panthers

Edited April 4, 2022 by George MC

[Aragorn2002]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

8th Guards Tank Army in its assembly area. Foreground unit is part of the 59th Guards Tank Brigade. “M3A1 x 2; 10 x T-34; 21 x M4A2. Tank battalions were brought together into one battalion” ref 8th Guards Tank Corps AAR 17/8/1944.

I'm not sure this will be the final force used in the scenario. I'm still untangling the actual course of events and how they went into action. The AAR I have shows them going in as a column so the assumption is they went in as deeply echeloned formation (which would tie in with doctrine) and also accounts for some of the early contact they made with the German armour in this sector. The rifle regiments from the 76th Guards seem to have broken the German lines (pretty quickly) so the armour went in by around mid-day to late afternoon BUT German account mention one armoured engagement in the morning where they KOd 12 'tanks'.

The 8th Guards Tank Corps had been pretty badly mauled by this stage was way understrength. So whilst it sounds a huge unit its actually comparatively small and easy handled in CM terms. The 75 Rifle Division attacked into this sector with two Rifle Regiments - though at moment unsure of their exact strength. Suspect be reduced given been in combat for a while so most likely 70% or even lower.

A zoomed out view showing the whole 8th Guards Corps including SU regiments. NOTE: 60th Guards Tank Brigade not shown as they came into action the following day from what I can gather.

Facing them were one German battalion (202 men) and elements from Wiking's Panther battalion with around 22 Panthers

Looking and sounding good, George!

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I really, really like it when head counts aren't 100%.

No doubt this will be another masterpiece.

[George MC]

On 4/4/2022 at 6:33 PM, Vergeltungswaffe said:

I really, really like it when head counts aren't 100%.

 

Hopefully you'll like this - most of the German and Soviet units are around 50-70% of actual ToE.

On 4/4/2022 at 6:33 PM, Vergeltungswaffe said:

No doubt this will be another masterpiece.

Thanks - never sure how they shape up till done, and then how they are received. Though I really enjoy the research and creating these. So I tend to view em from a purely intrinsic POV, though gerat when others like em too!

Cheery!

[George MC]

So I'm starting work on the AI Plan for the first phase of the Soviet attack into Wiking's right hand flank, SW of Tluszcz. 

As part of creating AI Plans I tend to do a quick and dirty play in hot seat mode. In this case I selected to the two assault groups from 76th Guards Rifle division (Soviet LHS - 234 Rifle Regiment CO - Guards Lieutenant Colonel Shkurko Vasily Stepanovich; and Soviet RHS 239 Rifle Regiment CO Guards Lieutenant Colonel Maxim Gavrilovich Gorb both units at around 60-70%) and just sent em forward... Arrayed against em two companies from II/Germania at around 50% strength. In RL the initial assault started a kilometer south east, with the guardsmen breaking through with no difficulty (not sure they even met any opposition apart from some German outposts). When they came into this sector the Germans were under a ferocious artillery bombardment.

It's useful to see which German units spot first and do the main killing. Then I can start to plan the arty support (in RL they used smokescreens but creating this in the AI plan and AI limitations in smoke use mean I have to ID the long range firing positions arcs of fire in game and then play the AI fire support smoke accordingly.

They did have some armour support (from what I can work out this seems to have been an overlap of the 8 GTC assault groups who the CO thinking they'd breached the main German lines sent em in) but I've left that out just now. I'll focus on creating the initial AI Plan for the infantry then 'layer' the armour onto that, using triggers etc to provide some co-ordnination but also help stall the attack if the German player can do enough to slow the initial attack.

[Glubokii Boy]

5 hours ago, George MC said:

As part of creating AI Plans I tend to do a quick and dirty play in hot seat mode. 

I do the same....using some simple 'AI-kind of' orders for the intended AI side. Saving the game frequently will allow for testing different approaches at the various stages in the battle quite easily. When doing initial testing I usually also keep some 'extra' units on the map (hidden out of the way) that i can quite quickly bring into the fight if i see that one side or the other needs them. If i do use these extras in my hotseat test run i will add them to the OOB before starting work on my AI plans. 

6 hours ago, George MC said:

 

 Then I can start to plan the arty support (in RL they used smokescreens but creating this in the AI plan and AI limitations in smoke use mean I have to ID the long range firing positions arcs of fire in game and then play the AI fire support smoke accordingly.

 

Will this be a turn one AI smokescreen ? or do you have some clever way of getting the AI to deliver a sufficient (on time, on target) smokescreen after turn 1.

Will perhaps a delayed reinforcement artillery work for a later smokescreen set for turn 1 ?

[Aragorn2002]

9 hours ago, George MC said:

Hopefully you'll like this - most of the German and Soviet units are around 50-70% of actual ToE.

Thanks - never sure how they shape up till done, and then how they are received. Though I really enjoy the research and creating these. So I tend to view em from a purely intrinsic POV, though gerat when others like em too!

Cheery!

I think I spent more time playing your scenarios than all other (also excellent) scenarios combined. If I was BF I would have you kidnapped and make you develop scenarios and campaigns in a dark dungeon for the rest of your life, George.

[George MC]

13 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I think I spent more time playing your scenarios than all other (also excellent) scenarios combined. If I was BF I would have you kidnapped and make you develop scenarios and campaigns in a dark dungeon for the rest of your life, George.

He! Appreciate the sentiment - I think - but my missus and wee one might object!

Edited April 12, 2022 by George MC

[George MC]

5 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said:

I do the same....using some simple 'AI-kind of' orders for the intended AI side. Saving the game frequently will allow for testing different approaches at the various stages in the battle quite easily. When doing initial testing I usually also keep some 'extra' units on the map (hidden out of the way) that i can quite quickly bring into the fight if i see that one side or the other needs them. If i do use these extras in my hotseat test run i will add them to the OOB before starting work on my AI plans. 

Will this be a turn one AI smokescreen ? or do you have some clever way of getting the AI to deliver a sufficient (on time, on target) smokescreen after turn 1.

Will perhaps a delayed reinforcement artillery work for a later smokescreen set for turn 1 ?

I’ve a historical OOB but given the weight of stuff that was rammed into this area by the Soviets the AI will have all the help it needs!!

re smoke screens. The Soviets have a TONNE of artillery modules. I’ve 8 AI fire support targets including three smoke missions. All come on at around 30s+
 

The AI will tend to drop stuff in a smaller impact zone than you paint. What I’m fiddling with is getting the AI smoke rounds to land on three distinct impact zones but link up the drifting smoke into one continuous screen. 
 

I’ve no real tricks I use re AI turn 1 arty apart from above. The AI will ignore plotted AI plan fire support targets and not commit reinforcement arty modules to these fire plans. In this case best bet is copious TRPs, high quality FOs and equivalent quality arty etc batteries. I’ve found can get some pretty effective AI controlled hip pocket fire support then. 
 

Cheery!

[Glubokii Boy]

4 minutes ago, George MC said:

In this case best bet is copious TRPs, high quality FOs and equivalent quality arty etc batteries. I’ve found can get some pretty effective AI controlled hip pocket fire support then. 

Yepp...That will work for HE but being able to get the AI to drop a smokescreen at the right location a few minutes into the scenario seems to be...not doable unfortunatelly. 

Thanks for the reply and the upcomming scenario...Will be a BLAST i'm sure 

[Aragorn2002]

8 hours ago, George MC said:

He! Appreciate the sentiment - I think - but my missus and wee bit be might object!

Don't tell her, George. Please.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[George MC]

Wee update. Testing AI Plan (timings with attacking units and arty support - taking some fettling!) and the context.

"At 0900Hrs the Soviets opened a formidable barrage on all the lines of the IV.SS-Pz.Korps, in particularly against the left flank of the Totenkopf and against the entire area of responsibility of the Wiking This shelling, so intense that it was impossible to distinguish the explosions from one another, like a continuous roar of thunder, was followed by ceaseless attacks on the part of the Russian air force on the positions of the artillery. The Totenkopf and the Wiking had to face the offensive of two Soviet rifle corps, supported by a whole mechanized body, between Grabie Stare and Sulejow. Out of the six divisions of riflemen who attacked, four pressed in front of the Wiking!" Ref Trang

Images show elements from the assault group from 59 Guards Tank Brigade - 289th Tank Battalion with tankodesantniki from their SMG battalion plus elements from 301 SU Rgt, No4 battery attack into elements from the 'Wiking'  II/"Germania" at Hill 107 behind advancing infantry from 76th Guards Rifle Division..

'Germania's the 5. and 6 companies, were nearly overrun southwest of Tluszcz near Jasienica by Soviet tanks and infantry that had broken through Jadwinin. Ref nash.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by George MC

[Vacillator]

Looks great George.  So that's AI plans for the Soviet attack?  I'll resist to the best of my ability with the forces you give me.

I agree with @Aragorn2002 about the wonders you bring to the game, but I'm not sure about the kidnapping bit .

[Glubokii Boy]

Beautiful pics ! What can i say....

15 hours ago, George MC said:

Wee update. Testing AI Plan (timings with attacking units and arty support - taking some fettling!) and the context.

Oohh, goitch !

Something like a 100 vehicles and i'm guessing a sizable infantry force...The ai programing will be quite challenging i'm sure ...This being a russian attack...AI human wave tactics might work quite well though...

Will be intresting to see the final result...Looking forward to playing this, thanks !

 

 

 

[Simcoe]

What's everyone's opinion on the book this is based off of? Seems like half the reviews love it and the other half call it Nazi propaganda.

[George MC]

9 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said:

Beautiful pics ! What can i say....

Oohh, goitch !

Something like a 100 vehicles and i'm guessing a sizable infantry force...The ai programing will be quite challenging i'm sure ...This being a russian attack...AI human wave tactics might work quite well though...

Will be intresting to see the final result...Looking forward to playing this, thanks !

 

 

 

They attacked in echelons so recreating that and coordinating it within the AI plan is the key challenge.

I’m doing it in layers to begin. Lot of plotting AI orders and running it to ensure timings are correct. Getting the first echelon timings correct is crucial for the follow on ones. 

Cheery!
 

[George MC]

33 minutes ago, Simcoe said:

What's everyone's opinion on the book this is based off of? Seems like half the reviews love it and the other half call it Nazi propaganda.

It’s an interesting trilogy and breaks down how a German corps staff works. It’s mainly from the German side but Soviet angle covered also just not in same detail. But the intent was to cover how a German staff corps works during major combat ops. So it is very focussed on German characters and actions. Re bias - well guess readers have to read it and make their own minds up. 

If interested in what was going on in this area by the Germans prior to the Soviet attacks we’ll worth checking out Philip Blood’s Birds of Prey. 

[Vacillator]

23 hours ago, George MC said:

 Re bias - well guess readers have to read it and make their own minds up.

Okay, have been considering it for a while but will have to get the books now.  I would be surprised if they fall into the 'Nazi propaganda' zone, but who knows.

[George MC]

On 4/19/2022 at 11:16 PM, Vacillator said:

Okay, have been considering it for a while but will have to get the books now.  I would be surprised if they fall into the 'Nazi propaganda' zone, but who knows.

My view, FWIW, I don't think it does. It's very factual - view based on primary sources and puts the combat performance of the IV SS-Pz Korps into some sort of perspective. That's not to diminish the effectiveness of the Soviet attacks they successfully fended off or failed to - but it does illustrate the concept of an elastic defence being deployed and all that needs to happen at the corps level for this to succeed, or not... Also some interesting insight into personality clashes with senior commanders.

I suspect given it describes the combat performance of an WSS corps in an objective light then I can see how it will be labelled such. It does focus on combat operations but as i said if you want to find out more about the culture permeating the German war machine then read Phil Blood's Birds of Prey. It's not easy reading though.

Paul 'Woody' Woodadge WWTV YouTube channel has two interviews with Doug re his trilogy and also two interviews with Phil Blood - all are well worth watching IMO. Both together will provide context as both focus on very distinct but complementary aspect of how German armed forces - including the WWS - operated.

Cheery!

[Vacillator]

Thanks for the extra info @George MC, what you say agrees with my initial thoughts but it seems a bit of reading is required on my side.  

Or I could stick to playing your scenarios, probably far more rewarding .  And with that in mind, let's load up RT one more time...

Edited April 21, 2022 by Vacillator

[Aragorn2002]

As much as I like these books, I also regret that the Panzer divisions of the army don't enjoy the same attention as  those of the Waffen SS. Having said that, Mr. Nash also wrote a book about the 272nd Volks-Grenadier Division (Victory Was Beyond Their Grasp) and doesn't hesitate to condemn national socialism and war crimes.

Just a good historian and military man, interested in operational warfare. 

[George MC]

As per the above screen shots, II. BtL./Germania's two other companies, (the 5. and 6), were nearly overrun southwest of Tluszcz near Jasienica by Soviet tanks and infantry that had broken through Jadwinin before a counterattack launched by SS-Hauptsturmführer Hans Flügel II. Abt./SS-Pz.Rgt. 5, supported by a Schutzenpanzerwagen company from Ill Btl./Germania, drove them off after destroying 12 Soviet tanks. 

Following screenshots show this attack going in.

“All Bussard Stations, net call, over!”

“Bussard 1 to Bussard Commander send over!”

“Bussard 1 go into overwatch 200m at your 1 O’Clock, Over!”

“Bussard 1, acknowledged, Out!”

“All Bussard Stations this is Bussard 1! 11 O’Clock, enemy tank, 600m!” 

“Load AP!”
“AP, up, safety on!”
“1 O’Clock – AP – 20 mils - 600! – panzer – Shoot!”
“Achtung!”
“Over!”
“1 O’Clock – AP – 20 mils - 550! – panzer – Shoot!”
“Hit!”
“Move forward half right, 50m”

“Perner leader to Perner 4!”

“Perner 4 to Perner Leader, send over!”

“1 O’clock, 300m, slight rise, move out, over!”

“Perner 4 to Perner leader, yes! out!”

Edited April 30, 2022 by George MC

[Vacillator]

3 minutes ago, George MC said:

Following screenshots show this attack going in

As said elsewhere , fantastic George, love it!

[Aragorn2002]

Bringing history alive, George. That's what you do.

[George MC]

Had wee break due to family stuff.

Back to creating AI plan for the Soviets. Some screens (I'm playing Germans against my AI plan).

SPW move up to support the Panthers.

Männer gegen Panzer 

The Soviet AI plan certainly has mass behind it!