Suppression / Professional.

[Artkin]

34 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

Which units exactly? There's a lot of stuff on that map.

Thanks for providing examples.

The SMG squad on my right flank in the city. The one that is the closest to the enemy. They die in that turn, after running out of the house and toward the German lines.  

I'll take a screenshot tomorrow

Edited October 28, 2021 by Artkin

[Redwolf]

14 hours ago, Artkin said:

The SMG squad on my right flank in the city. The one that is the closest to the enemy. They die in that turn, after running out of the house and toward the German lines.  

I'll take a screenshot tomorrow

Yeah, I can't even clearly see what your right flank is. The SMG squad I thought you mean does not die. Can you specify as "x squad, y platoon, z company..."?

[The Steppenwulf]

19 hours ago, semmes said:

In this case you control the "hide" but you cannot control the "crawl away". I see your point... and I disagree.

Try a "slow" (crawl) movement command to move away from the axis of suppressive fire retaining the "hide". Still disagreeing?

With regard to the MG42 you are aware that this weapons main quality is to suppress the enemy. It is not particularly accurate. My reading from your comment in the other thread was that you think "effectiveness" means its capacity to inflict casualties. This is easily misunderstood by players that come from other games like CoH and possibly other mainstream RTS titles. I know I played them myself! The MG42s in those games are misrepresented in this (not to mention ranges and everything else about those games that is disappointingly represented). In CM I've had frequent firefights [MG vs Bren gun by way of example] and the Bren is far more effective in terms of inflicting casualties but comparatively weak at the side of the MG42 with regard to its suppressive capability. But the Bren needs superlative cover to prevent getting suppressed and the German player can only stack the odds in his favour if he has another fireteam to flank the cover.

You'll find that this game experience tactically checks out with what to expect historically. The tactics employed in CM correlate pretty well with the accuracy of the weapon modelling.  That correlation is better than I've found in any other computer game thus far, otherwise I'd move on.

I'd suggest that this is what Steve means when he talks about staying in business; for all the progression with the product the consumers would like to see, the company continue to sell their products. That's because if some other dev was doing it better we'd all stop purchasing BF's products. Ergo; Steve would be flipping burgers instead.

He's right yeh... so perhaps cut the dev some slack! 

 

[Artkin]

4 hours ago, Redwolf said:

Yeah, I can't even clearly see what your right flank is. The SMG squad I thought you mean does not die. Can you specify as "x squad, y platoon, z company..."?

Sure when I am home. 

[MikeyD]

Players reap a huge benefit from their 'eye of God' view of the battlefield. Many times you know there are enemy forces across the street but the pixeltruppen team doesn't know they're there. You know where incoming fire is coming from but the pixeltruppen being fired on don't. 'Fog of war' is explicitly modeled. If they do something stupid it often means you placed them into a situation guaranteed to do something stupid, or the enemy boxed them into a no-win situation.

[Artkin]

6 hours ago, Redwolf said:

Yeah, I can't even clearly see what your right flank is. The SMG squad I thought you mean does not die. Can you specify as "x squad, y platoon, z company..."?

2nd Squad, 1st Platoon, 2nd Company, 4/3 Guards Motor Rifle Bn

[chuckdyke]

2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Players reap a huge benefit from their 'eye of God' view of the battlefield. Many times you know there are enemy forces across the street but the pixeltruppen team doesn't know they're there. You know where incoming fire is coming from but the pixeltruppen being fired on don't. 'Fog of war' is explicitly modeled. If they do something stupid it often means you placed them into a situation guaranteed to do something stupid, or the enemy boxed them into a no-win situation.

It is a game into itself and I think it is the cause of people's frustrations. If the system doesn't generate a contact icon for your unit or units all your plotting from the Eye of God maybe a waste of effort. I think the benefit of the Eye of God is overstated. I try to ignore it. Kesselring at Nuremburg claimed his bombers didn't see the flare from his ground troops so Rotterdam was bombed. The prosecutor suggested to cancel a mission should be protocol by default if the ground forces don't confirm a military presence by using a flare. Carpet bombing was mostly ineffective used tactically take Omaha beach at Normandy as an unfortunate example. My preplanned artillery missions are much more effective. Call for fire and use infantry to make contact before going ahead whether you can see trenches or foxholes or not.

Edited October 29, 2021 by chuckdyke

[holoween]

6 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Try a "slow" (crawl) movement command to move away from the axis of suppressive fire retaining the "hide". Still disagreeing?

With regard to the MG42 you are aware that this weapons main quality is to suppress the enemy. It is not particularly accurate. My reading from your comment in the other thread was that you think "effectiveness" means its capacity to inflict casualties. This is easily misunderstood by players that come from other games like CoH and possibly other mainstream RTS titles. I know I played them myself! The MG42s in those games are misrepresented in this (not to mention ranges and everything else about those games that is disappointingly represented). In CM I've had frequent firefights [MG vs Bren gun by way of example] and the Bren is far more effective in terms of inflicting casualties but comparatively weak at the side of the MG42 with regard to its suppressive capability. But the Bren needs superlative cover to prevent getting suppressed and the German player can only stack the odds in his favour if he has another fireteam to flank the cover.

You'll find that this game experience tactically checks out with what to expect historically. The tactics employed in CM correlate pretty well with the accuracy of the weapon modelling.  That correlation is better than I've found in any other computer game thus far, otherwise I'd move on.

I'd suggest that this is what Steve means when he talks about staying in business; for all the progression with the product the consumers would like to see, the company continue to sell their products. That's because if some other dev was doing it better we'd all stop purchasing BF's products. Ergo; Steve would be flipping burgers instead.

He's right yeh... so perhaps cut the dev some slack! 

 

A weapons ability to supress is directly corelated to its ability to inflict casualties. basically a function of how many rounds per unit of time youre able to get on target with the target being small for a casualty and somewhat larger for supression. Or differently put: how much a weapon supresses depends on how much the supressed thinks hes going to die when sticking up his head.

In regards to mg42s accuracy id say its quite underestimated. To give a point of reference with an mg3 firing single rounds im getting a group size about 2-3 times that of a g36. For bursts up to 3 rounds the group size again doubles for the mg3.

And since its something that will come up i personally found the slow rate of the mg5 to be far less pleasant to shoot and couldnt get better groups with it even tough these were new weapons compared to 40year old mg3s which saw heavy usage.

Note that this obviously reflects my own skills with those weapons and others might differ but the general trend for accuracy holds true.

[semmes]

13 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Try a "slow" (crawl) movement

Hide + 05" Pause + Slow + Hide. They disregard the movement order, at the same time command groups sometimes crawl away.
After a time I stopped giving that order. I am playing one scenario now, I am sure I will find more than one opportunity to test that again.

"Suppressed" and firing Bren, I guess.

13 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

You'll find that this game experience tactically checks out with what to expect historically.

Running towards the bullets?, not taking cover? I disagree. Almost every other game is worse? I do agree.

We don't want to be on the dole. I do agree. Modders will never work on old games? I disagree.

War is a competition of incompetence -the least incompetent usually win. Pakistani General Tiger.

[The Steppenwulf]

9 hours ago, holoween said:

To give a point of reference with an mg3 firing single rounds im getting a group size about 2-3 times that of a g36. For bursts up to 3 rounds the group size again doubles for the mg3.

And since its something that will come up i personally found the slow rate of the mg5 to be far less pleasant to shoot and couldnt get better groups with it even tough these were new weapons compared to 40year old mg3s which saw heavy usage.

Note that this obviously reflects my own skills with those weapons and others might differ but the general trend for accuracy holds true.

Not disputing your experience of these weapons (I've never used them), but to be fair, the mg3 is not quite the 42 (all kinds of modifications and slight improvements apply to the mg3) and you are running comparisons with modern weapons with different calibres. Secondly you have to factor in at what sort of ranges the comparisons are taken. The 5.56 is going to be at a disadvantage at longer ranges. Anyway the point about comparison with the Bren and the 42 is the rate of fire, the latter gets more rounds down range but the recoil from doing so comes at a price. 

As for the points about suppression: modern western military thinking is to supply and use large amounts of ammunition in firefights.... and the core tactic in firefight training is getting rounds down range (learned directly from lessons in ww2). The reasoning is not that predominantly more rounds means you will kill the enemy (though it might do), it's 1. prevent the enemy from firing back at you 2. limit his ability to maintain visual on you. 3. restrict his ability to maneuver. 4. limit his ability to think, coordinate and implement a counter-plan. 

I used to be a soldier once, during a time the UK replaced the SLR with the SA80. There were a few reasons for the change but a lesson learned from the Falklands conflict was that the SLR with such a slow rate of fire, it just couldn't get enough rounds down range to dominate the firefight (they were facing the M16 used by the Argentinians). The SA80 however would offer that capability - carrying more rounds and expending more rounds - highlighting well this priority in tactical thought. Of course the Russians had done exactly the same with the Kalashnikov with the same tactical rationale.

4 hours ago, semmes said:

Hide + 05" Pause + Slow + Hide

   I don't use the pause button in this situation. The pause button generally carries dangerous consequences. Apply only when you've tried and tested it in specific situations. Again play the game and learn - how many more times!

 

4 hours ago, semmes said:

I am sure I will find more than one opportunity to test that again.

You're getting there! 

 

4 hours ago, semmes said:

Running towards the bullets?

This is a different issue from the modelling of the weapon capabilities of the 42 and the Bren (it's best not to conflate your arguments). Nevertheless, the whole "running out of cover bug" is discussed extensively in other threads. I was one of the main complainants when it arose years ago, and I found ww2 CM totally unplayable for best part of 18-24 months. I've played at least a dozen games of CM over the past 18 months, since the substantive patch/engine update, and not seen anything that has come close to those issues. If you do, save the file and report it.

My h2h buddy believes that playing scenarios that were created early on (up to 2015) are more likely to have pathing issues. I think he might be on to something: Pathing issues with terrain that's changed over past 10 years of the engines iteration could be one reason for panicked troops running away in incredulous directions. It doesn't mean everything's perfect with pathing with later scenarios, no, but it might be worth considering only playing scenarios created/updated post mid-2015. It might reduce undesirable incidences with pathing due to terrain. 

4 hours ago, semmes said:

Modders will never work on old games?

CM is one of the best supported games for modding. There is just so much that can be modded. The scenario editor alone is a brilliant too. Along with model and texture modifications we have some amazing mods and scenario content that is continually being developed  - too much in fact to probably ever play. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if there are more mods out there for CM than any other game of its age!

Engine modding - but this is different (as argued on the other threads), pathing problems above are a good case in point why it's a bad idea. Want more issues and problems? They will proliferate if everyone could change the core code to suit any old whim. It'll lead to insecurity about how and what you are playing. I want a stable and reliable version, just like (ironically) you are arguing for too.

Edited October 29, 2021 by The Steppenwulf

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Players reap a huge benefit from their 'eye of God' view of the battlefield. Many times you know there are enemy forces across the street but the pixeltruppen team doesn't know they're there. You know where incoming fire is coming from but the pixeltruppen being fired on don't.

Maybe you should consider changing it so that the player cannot see tracers and hear exactly where fire is coming from, unless the pixeltroopers can. Would make the game more challenging and immersive.

[chuckdyke]

Try to play the game with the 'Icons' turned off if you want the ultimate in realism.

[Redwolf]

19 hours ago, Artkin said:

2nd Squad, 1st Platoon, 2nd Company, 4/3 Guards Motor Rifle Bn

I agree that this is clearly fleeing towards the enemy.

It only does so when paniced and down to 2 men. So it is a moderate case. A case that still shouldn't exist if the game's documented behavior is that automatically given commands (without player intervention) should not go toward the enemy.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Redwolf

[semmes]

22 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

The pause button generally carries dangerous consequences.

As the fire arc does... and somebody mentioned it before.

22 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

This is a different issue from the modelling of

 No, the thread is Suppression.
In 5 different places, in the last Turn they didn't hit the deck, they just followed their movements orders... at a run, even if they were running towards the bullets, even after suffering a casualty.
Again, not fleeing -even if the still, occasionally, flee towards the bullets.
Again,
"(One little thing, I didn't say "running away towards the bullets". If they are moving towards a hill and they receive fire from that hill,
they don't take cover, they ran towards the hill so, towards the bullets.)"

Yes, dealing with the AI is tricky to say the least. In an old game the basic AI -one the behaviours that we could mod- was half a page,
 a modder came with 3 pages.
Dealing with ROF, range and number of rounds... -a spreadsheet, in another game-  is maybe not that complex.
In every game you've got what is hardcoded, what you can never mod, like... rounds in a lorry?
It doesn't matter: The policy is not going to change.

 

Suppression: no movement, no fire. 
    - fire and movement?
    - no fire but movement?
    - fire but no movement?

Quisque est barbarus alii.

[chuckdyke]

10 minutes ago, semmes said:

As the fire arc does... and somebody mentioned it before.

 No, the thread is Suppression.
In 5 different places, in the last Turn they didn't hit the deck, they just followed their movements orders... at a run, even if they were running towards the bullets, even after suffering a casualty.
Again, not fleeing -even if the still, occasionally, flee towards the bullets.
Again,
"(One little thing, I didn't say "running away towards the bullets". If they are moving towards a hill and they receive fire from that hill,
they don't take cover, they ran towards the hill so, towards the bullets.)"

Yes, dealing with the AI is tricky to say the least. In an old game the basic AI -one the behaviours that we could mod- was half a page,
 a modder came with 3 pages.
Dealing with ROF, range and number of rounds... -a spreadsheet, in another game-  is maybe not that complex.
In every game you've got what is hardcoded, what you can never mod, like... rounds in a lorry?
It doesn't matter: The policy is not going to change.

 

Suppression: no movement, no fire. 
    - fire and movement?
    - no fire but movement?
    - fire but no movement?

Quisque est barbarus alii.

On this thread it comes down to communication. You need to give some decent screen shots. Quick means advance, Hunt is move to contacts as far as I understand it. 

Straight attack results in casualties movement to contact results in a few or little casualties. Here is the result of movement to contact. You select not the best of your available troops. He suffered one casualty lower quality units seek cover when the firing starts, higher quality units fire back without giving a hoot about personal safety.

The engagement resulted in a tentative contact as luck has it by a T34/85. A German veteran once stated the people on the engine decks were just cannon-fodder. They have their uses. 

[semmes]

On 10/28/2021 at 7:26 PM, The Steppenwulf said:

You'll find that this game experience tactically checks out with what to expect historically.

...

4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

, higher quality units fire back without giving a hoot about personal safety.

So... which one?

 

It is not the long-haired, well-fed that I fear but the pale and hungry-looking. J Caesar.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, semmes said:

So... which one?

To make contact choose lesser quality, they cower the moment bullets fly past them. Security squads I select lower quality once the units have good quality tentative contacts use the higher quality to attack or assault. Here the unit is cautious after suffering one casualty he is prone not obeying all the commands I give. Nervous is he next level, Rattled, Shaken doesn't follow orders at all and panic run all over the place. Crack or Elite carry out your orders much longer.

[The Steppenwulf]

14 hours ago, semmes said:

In 5 different places, in the last Turn they didn't hit the deck, they just followed their movements orders... at a run

You were likely on fast. fast troops don't stop for nothing and will be wiped out if they don't come to a way point first.

 

14 hours ago, semmes said:

Suppression: no movement, no fire. 
    - fire and movement?
    - no fire but movement?
    - fire but no movement?

@chuckdyke has it - quality of troops! Crack ww2 airborne troops take longer to be suppressed and will undertake accurate counter fire when under fire. They also take much more crap before their morale degrades.


All of this information and much much more is in the CM game manual. How about reading it?  

[chuckdyke]

15 minutes ago, The Steppenwulf said:

All of this information and much much more is in the CM game manual. How about reading it?  

Read it and rewrite it in your own words and make your own graphics. It can take years before everything becomes second nature. The command panel had some hidden features for me. I experimented with Excel but all the tools are in the game when it comes to administration. Have a good day. 

[Artkin]

@The Steppenwulf

Erm yeah no. Troops on any movement order wont stop for nothing. They can lose every single man of their squad if they arent on Hunt. 

Put them on Normal and they start taking fire? Theyll start running. And then they will all die. 

Have you played this game?

Edited October 31, 2021 by Artkin

[dbsapp]

8 minutes ago, Artkin said:

@The Steppenwulf

Erm yeah no. Troops on any movement order wont stop for nothing. They can lose every single man of their squad if they arent on Hunt. 

Put them on Normal and they start taking fire? Theyll start running. And then they will all die. 

Have you played this game?

It would be great to have some mix of "Hunt" and "Quick" - like quick moving that stops when taking fire or spotting enemy. 

[Artkin]

It would be great if people actually played this game before posting here.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, dbsapp said:

It would be great to have some mix of "Hunt" and "Quick"

Assault? They stop at every waypoint and return fire if there is full contact. Experience is the best teacher in this game, there are no hard and fast rules. 

[MikeyD]

People have reported a CM-related affliction where, as you're driving down the road, your mind is involuntarily working out defilade ambush positions and routes of advance across the fields you pass. I recall passing a random isolated house on a hill and (tactically) noting the north-facing facade doesn't have windows. That sort of thinking works both ways. When you're in the game you should be thinking "Would I be attempting this in real life?" Perhaps your pixeltruppen are not behaving as you wish because you've put them into an uncomfortable position. There's often something in the situation that you wouldn't want to be doing if it was you on the ground with a rife in your hand.

[dbsapp]

1 minute ago, MikeyD said:

People have reported a CM-related affliction where, as you're driving down the road, your mind is involuntarily working out defilade ambush positions and routes of advance across the fields you pass. I recall passing a random isolated house on a hill and (tactically) noting the north-facing facade doesn't have windows. That sort of thinking works both ways. When you're in the game you should be thinking "Would I be attempting this in real life?" Perhaps your pixeltruppen are not behaving as you wish because you've put them into an uncomfortable position. There's often something in the situation that you wouldn't want to be doing if it was you on the ground with a rife in your hand.

I wouldn't like to be in any position CM puts pixeltruppen in