semmes Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 From "Professional" thread. Are we adding suppression to the conversation now? Do you mention that because of "them not taking cover"?, because they ran towards the bullets?, because they are pinned/cowering and firing back? True, I cannot understand "suppression" in this game. Pinned, on the other hand, seems to mean: you cannot crawl back, you can neither rush nor crawl to any cover nearby but yes, by all means, raise your head, aim and fire. The beatings will continue until morale improves. RN, maybe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 It is not rocket science when it comes to unit selection and combat stress. @semmes you need to watch the area I highlighted. If that fills up yellow or red the unit or units will show erratic behaviour. It means it will frustrate a click-fest. Units will do things which defy logic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absolutmauser Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 The Suppression meter generally shows you how much fire the unit is currently receiving. The more suppression, the less the pixeltrooper will return fire and observe (i.e. they will cower more the more fire is incoming). With enough supression, they may become pinned, which means they will stay put and ignore movement orders. With further degradation, they will become shaken, which means they won't respond to move OR fire commands. So suppression has the immediate effect of reducing a units output of fire, and eventually it will cause them to be pinned, shaken, panicked, etc., especially if they start taking casualties. The quality of the unit determines how effective suppression is against and how fast morale degrades in the face of continuing suppression. A unit is "being suppressed" when its suppression meter is lit up. Suppression is a an effect of enemy fire that lasts as long as the fire continues. Pinning is a morale state that endures slightly longer depending on the unit's quality, communication with its leader, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
absolutmauser Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 Just now, absolutmauser said: The Suppression meter generally shows you how much fire the unit is currently receiving. The more suppression, the less the pixeltrooper will return fire and observe (i.e. they will cower more the more fire is incoming). With enough supression, they may become pinned, which means they will stay put and ignore movement orders. With further degradation, they will become shaken, which means they won't respond to move OR fire commands. So suppression has the immediate effect of reducing a units output of fire, and eventually it will cause them to be pinned, shaken, panicked, etc., especially if they start taking casualties. The quality of the unit determines how effective suppression is against and how fast morale degrades in the face of continuing suppression. A unit is "being suppressed" when its suppression meter is lit up. Suppression is a an effect of enemy fire that lasts as long as the fire continues. Pinning is a morale state that endures slightly longer depending on the unit's quality, communication with its leader, etc. I stand ready to be corrected here; this is me recounting my experience playing the games over time. Others here may be able to give a more detailed and accurate explanation of the mechanics that are happening! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 AFAIK you are generally on the mark, however I wouldn't wate your time responding to what is IMHO little more than semi-coherent ranting. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Steppenwulf Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 On 10/24/2021 at 10:07 AM, semmes said: but yes, by all means, raise your head, aim and fire. Units taking fire (as indicated by the suppression meter and outlined in the responses above), can be prevented altogether from the behaviour you state by setting a short fire arc together with "hide" command. When to keep heads completely down like this depends on the player's judgement of risk. The scale of risk depends on range and cover & concealment, weighed against the level indicated on the suppression meter. However incurring a single casualty when a unit is laying casually prone is generally a strong indicator that you should go full heads down, or else other casualties will almost certainly follow. Hope this helps, but perhaps instead of just complaining about the tactical side of the game, why not play more and experiment and learn how to play it better. Even better, you can flatten that learning curve by using the forum to read about how others play. There are plenty of effective tutorials out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vacillator Posted October 26, 2021 Share Posted October 26, 2021 44 minutes ago, The Steppenwulf said: Units taking fire Yes, well said and a +1 from me. Hello from Somerset . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semmes Posted October 27, 2021 Author Share Posted October 27, 2021 17 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said: Units taking fire (as indicated by the suppression meter and outlined in the responses above), can be prevented altogether from the behaviour you state by setting a short fire arc together with "hide" command. When to keep heads completely down like this depends on the player's judgement of risk. The scale of risk depends on range and cover & concealment, weighed against the level indicated on the suppression meter. Oh!, so you didn't notice that my point is that the AI should do that? You are happy giving those orders and you are happy that you cannot order them to move to a cover? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semmes Posted October 27, 2021 Author Share Posted October 27, 2021 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semmes Posted October 27, 2021 Author Share Posted October 27, 2021 Just now, semmes said: Those on the forward slope slid down, those on the reverse slope slid back; otherwise, no change. Conical Hill. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 I believe it's true the fleeing toward enemy bug still persists, I still have it happen. I didn't play CM extensively before the bug was "Patched" though, so I can't tell how substantial the fix was. I also believe this bug isn't an easy one to fix at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Steppenwulf Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, semmes said: Oh!, so you didn't notice that my point is that the AI should do that? You are happy giving those orders and you are happy that you cannot order them to move to a cover? Well no, because you didn't say that. But it's still wrong! Wrong because it's a value judgement about how much control you want in a game. At one extreme of the spectrum you could have everything controlled by the AI - wouldn't be much of a game because they'd be nothing left for the player to do. A large scale RTS game like Wargame or Total War really has to have lots of behaviours controlled by the AI, otherwise the player would be tasked out, overwhelmed! Playability = 0 CM however is not that sort of game, there are no higher level strategic or operational game functions to task your brain with. CM is a tactical turn based game. And many of the micro-management functions like this are commensurate with a game that deals in function details. To illustrate the point further, let's assume you are right and it should be controlled by the AI. Another forum user drops by and like you rudely demands that all fire commands should be controlled by the AI. What do you think about that suggestion? Another ill mannered individual drops by and demands all types of movement should be AI decisions... We wouldn't have much of a tactical turn based game anymore would we? Playability = 0. Now granted, I realise unless you knew about cover commands in CM (though "Hide" and its respective animation should provide a clue), the newbie will suffer at the hands of a more experienced player. But that's characteristic of the learning curve for any game. The newbie needs to learn to play, just as he/she might with Wargame, see that is part of the experience. Sorry you can't dig this one! Edited October 27, 2021 by The Steppenwulf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 39 minutes ago, Artkin said: I believe it's true the fleeing toward enemy bug still persists, I still have it happen. I didn't play CM extensively before the bug was "Patched" though, so I can't tell how substantial the fix was. I also believe this bug isn't an easy one to fix at all. There was an early 4.x version that made it much worse. That particular one has been fixed and now it is back to the 3.x state. Which never was free from the phenomenon and still isn't. I agree that with the current code I see way too much auto-ordered movement that is either going in the direction of the enemy, or showing side or rear to the enemy, or both. Simply not issuing those orders if they go toward the enemy would be an improvement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 I am not seeing any more of the running towards the enemy bug at all. Play a lot and I am no longer using my work around for the bug and I have not seen it again since it was fixed. As far as I know BFC considers it fixed. So, if you guys see it please save the turn and PM me or your favourite tester. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 27 minutes ago, IanL said: I am not seeing any more of the running towards the enemy bug at all. Play a lot and I am no longer using my work around for the bug and I have not seen it again since it was fixed. As far as I know BFC considers it fixed. So, if you guys see it please save the turn and PM me or your favourite tester. I agree that the infantry running toward the enemy has been reset to good levels. I am talking about AFVs taking evasive action (even without panic) that brings them closer to the enemy and/or exposes side or rear. When I brought up turns in the past it was rebuked like "there's the map edge right there, where is it supposed to go but forward?". Well, the automatic evasive move should only be issued when the destination is actually safer or at least further away. For non-panic units. So if it has its back to an obstacle or the map edge then just don't do automatically ordered moves. It is an easy check - is the distance to the enemy in the target location less than in the departure location? If yes, then take no action against the player's orders unless the unit is paniced. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semmes Posted October 27, 2021 Author Share Posted October 27, 2021 4 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said: Wrong because it's a value judgement about how much control you want in a game. In this case you control the "hide" but you cannot control the "crawl away". I see your point... and I disagree. (One little thing, I didn't say "running away towards the bullets". If they are moving towards a hill and they receive fire from that hill, they don't take cover, they ran towards the hill so, towards the bullets.) Let's see... This is coming from the Professional thread.. I mentioned the LMG 42 effectiveness... Steve mentioned suppression... I think I read somewhere that the whole point of suppressive/covering fire was to keep the head of the other guys down... I don't think suppression is properly modelled. The point is clear, we are not going to modify the code... Suppression is not suppressive -enough- in this game... And that will change when Steve feels like or if he feels like it. He also mentioned something about flipping burgers and Capitalism, but I couldn't quite get that... -And I don't know if Steve finds the Rand Corporation or the British Operational Research empirical enough. In fiction, of course, the bullet would have gone through the heart of the German battery commander, in real life it went through my right foot. McKee. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, semmes said: You are happy giving those orders and you are happy that you cannot order them to move to a cover? Yes that is what the game is about. Elite troops don't obey silly orders and if the morale is panic well they panic. I honestly think you don't understand the game. Let me have a guess: Your thinking is subjective of what the engine does. To enlighten the IQ in real life of an elite trooper is something like 120 the IQ of an AI generated pixel trooper is 0.0001% if even that. In the game if there is a minus on a unit they cower quickly instead of firing his Javelin if there is a plus a rifle man shoots back at an HMG. You need to look at leadership quality morale status and experience. You need to supply screenshots if you want people to give an answer which makes sense. My honest advice to you is to look at a different computer game unlike us you clearly don't enjoy yourself. Edited October 27, 2021 by chuckdyke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 Someone should summon the Billy Goats Gruff! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 27, 2021 Share Posted October 27, 2021 (edited) I just had it happen to me today in one of my battles. Infantry squad moved through a house to get to a connected house. Then they got suppressed and fled right toward the enemy. The house might have had something to do with it, the infantry really just wanted to get outside, but they could have gone back from where they came, which would have been the safe direction. File: http://www.filedropper.com/battleforradzy055 Pass: 747 It was the tip of the spear of my huge SMG blob on my right flank. They got pummeled. Edited October 27, 2021 by Artkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 12 minutes ago, Artkin said: It was the tip of the spear of my huge SMG blob on my right flank. They got pummeled. Is it too hard to give a screenshot? All I received was a link to download something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artkin Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, chuckdyke said: Is it too hard to give a screenshot? All I received was a link to download something. Is it too hard to read the thread before downloading something that wasnt intended for you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 2 hours ago, semmes said: The point is clear, we are not going to modify the code... Suppression is not suppressive -enough- in this game... And that will change when Steve feels like or if he feels like it. He also mentioned something about flipping burgers and Capitalism, but I couldn't quite get that... -And I don't know if Steve finds the Rand Corporation or the British Operational Research empirical enough. Posts like this just prove you are a troll. P.S. What pithy, irrelevant quote are you going to grace us with next? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozowans Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 If you think suppression is not suppressive enough, try playing as syrian conscripts against the US army. I think you're gonna need to provide more specific examples of this. What kind of unit is being suppressed here? What are their experience levels and motivation? How many and what kind of units are doing the suppressing and at what distance? Even heavily suppressed troops will sometimes pop up and shoot back in self defense when there are enemies very close by, like if you have an assault team closing in. In that case, the assault team is a much greater threat than the fire coming in from a distance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Artkin said: Is it too hard to read the thread before downloading something that wasnt intended for you? Comments are for everybody there is an option to go private. Also you can use quotes. To make you happy I put you on ignore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 28, 2021 Share Posted October 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Artkin said: I just had it happen to me today in one of my battles. Infantry squad moved through a house to get to a connected house. Then they got suppressed and fled right toward the enemy. The house might have had something to do with it, the infantry really just wanted to get outside, but they could have gone back from where they came, which would have been the safe direction. File: http://www.filedropper.com/battleforradzy055 Pass: 747 It was the tip of the spear of my huge SMG blob on my right flank. They got pummeled. Which units exactly? There's a lot of stuff on that map. Thanks for providing examples. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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