BUG: infantry in buildings position themselves outside of building (SF2)

[Pelican Pal]

https://imgur.com/a/L6J9Zi7

The image speaks for itself. But essentially when ordered into a structure one man will move to just outside the door. Quite often getting himself killed since he loses both the concealment and cover bonus from the building.

I've seen this happen a few times in SF2 Canadian Campaign. Has anyone seen it crop up anywhere else/has there been any comment on it? I have a vague memory of it occurring in Black Sea but need to test

[Erwin]

I haven't noticed this issue.  But, I always split my squads into smaller teams.  If you give the troops a FACE command against the back wall does the exterior guy come inside?

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Pelican Pal said:

Has anyone seen it crop up anywhere else

Pretty common issue across the titles, I think.

[chuckdyke]

Yep, more prevalent if there is a balcony, where they all go outside. 

[Erwin]

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Yep, more prevalent if there is a balcony, where they all go outside. 

Yes, this is an issue.   One can mitigate this by giving the unit a covered arc that makes it face the wall inside the room with the balcony.  That way the unit stays hidden until one changes the arc.  Or... one can set the unit up that way, and then change the arc to 360 degrees... The unit will stay facing the wall (and not exit onto the balcony) until a target comes into LOS, at which time the unit will exit onto the balcony to fire at the target.

[chuckdyke]

2 minutes ago, Erwin said:

will exit onto the balcony to fire at the target.

Yes we can't order a unit in such a way which would be common sense in real life. That is by shooting out of the window which is also something we wouldn't do. But that is ok house fighting is very generic. 

[RockinHarry]

In WW2 titles I see this behavior mostly with the squad machine gunner and its assistant. In case the assistants´ place next to the MG is occupied by another squad member then the assistant gets into trouble. In small buildings (1 AS) the assistant then moves outside the building fairly often. Options available is splitting the squad and move teams subsequently (or just one team) into the location. Assault move is another possible solution. Personally I´d wish for the TacAI movement procedure to take this into consideration right from the start.

[Pelican Pal]

Here is another image from the same scenario:


Highlighted are 3 different squads showing the same issue. Notice the topmost squad has the spare man in the adjacent building

[Bozowans]

Never seen it with 3 squads simultaneously all right next to each other like that. That's pretty bad. I do see it happen now and then though. Very annoying but at least I can sometimes go through whole scenarios without noticing it or being negatively affected by it.

It just happened to me again a little while ago in SF2.

I ordered a five man team from a split squad into a large high-rise building. The lead guy ran into the building, through the opposite door and stopped out in the street on the other side. The building was large enough that it's not like there was a lack of space for him inside. Plus he was the first one in there. Here you can see where he first stopped, with the rest of the team filtering in behind him.

 

He then started slowly creeping his way forward, further and further away from the building. He would stop, crouch for a second, then get up and move a few feet forward, stop and crouch again for a second, then get up and move yet again. As if he was lost and trying to find a spot to settle down but couldn't. Silly pixeltruppen. This is where he stopped the second time:

 

And the third time:

 

Eventually he stopped and went prone maybe 6 feet away from the wall and started getting shot at by several enemies at once.

 

He probably took a good 30 seconds of fire but miraculously wasn't hit. I ordered the team to pull back behind the building again on the next turn. The lost guy in the street did not run back through the door behind him but ran around the side of the building instead. On the next turn after that, I ordered the team back into the same building again, same orders as before and without touching their target arc. I was hoping to see if the bug would replicate itself, but it didn't happen a second time. Pretty strange.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Bozowans

[Bozowans]

Ok now I did manage to get the bug to show up again. Same building, same doorway. I moved a two-man FO team into the building alongside the other team from the previous post, and BOTH guys from the FO team stepped out the door into the street.

 

It didn't go so well for me this time....

 

I wonder if this is a problem with certain buildings or if it's something that can happen anywhere, with any building? It seems like all of the CM titles have had trouble with certain buildings before, like with doors not working properly so squads try to run all the way around the building to use a different door instead, and then getting themselves killed in the process.

I know I didn't accidentally tell the FO team to move outside the building. Here you can even see the radioman in the FO team briefly stop where he is supposed to - behind the other team already in the building:

 

After the FO stepped out of the doorway into the street though, the radioman phased through the wall to join him outside the building. They sat there about 10 seconds before the tank shell came in.

 

This was the order I had given to the FO team:

 

This was all using the current Steam version of the game btw.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Bozowans

[ASL Veteran]

My first thought would be whether the pixeltruppen are confused by the balcony somehow.  My second thought for the buildings with no balcony would be to check the ground elevations on the map for those buildings to see if maybe they aren't on entirely flat ground.

[RockinHarry]

My guess goes to the diagonal building layout here. If buildings cover various action spots just in parts, then sometimes the outside (of AS) laying part of a building might be chosen for deployment. I´d try without a TA (or a circular one alternatively). For those kind of buildings there´s oftenly multiple snap points for waypoints available. I´d try click moving the set WP for alternatives and see if it works better.

[Erwin]

In all the CMSF2 games I played, I cannot recall this being a frequent, or even more than a very rare occurrence.  But then I always split into teams.  Am wondering if a recent update has dome something.  Or, are you playing an older version of the game?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Target Arcs can do weird stuff in buildings.....Using a permanent Pause command before issuing the Target Arc order can mitigate this somewhat.

PS - I supect @RockinHarry's suggestion may be part of the cause, either that or one of the building's exterior walls is on the action spot rather than its centre.

PPS - What map/scenario was this in please?  The issue of bugs travelling from CM:SF1 to CM:SF2 with ported maps & scenarios is under discussion elsewhere.....This may be a common theme (the behaviour you desribe was certainly somewhat present in both CM:SF1 & CM:A, I encountered it while testing the latter a day or two back).

Edited August 26, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Pelican Pal]

Mine are from the first mission of the Canadian campaign

[Bozowans]

So the target arcs are having no effect. I saved the game right before I ordered the FO team into that building, and each time I play the turn, the same bug happens regardless of what I do. So I can replicate the issue at least. Let's say I order the FO team to go into the building and then give a face command to the opposite side of where the bug is happening.

 

They run through the building, out the opposite door into the street again... and then turn to face the exact direction I ordered them to:

 

Now let's order them into the building again with a different face command, in a different direction.

 

Same thing happens.

The same thing also happens with a normal move order with no face command or target arc at the end.

Interestingly, the leader of the FO team is the one who always runs through the door out into the street first. His radioman partner always goes where he is supposed to at first. He stops inside the building briefly at a normal spot you would expect, posted in front of a window. Once the leader finishes his move though, the radioman will always move to join him out in the street.

So far, the suggestion of using a permanent pause command is the only thing that seems to help, but it does not solve the issue completely. This is what happens with a permanent pause command:

 

The FO team leader moves out into the street like he always does, but the radioman stays put at the correct spot.

The scenario is "Point Blank" from the Task Force Thunder campaign, using the latest Steam version of the game.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Bozowans

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Have you tried giving them a facing or target arc after the permanent pause.....I'm guessing you probably have, if so I'm all out of suggestions.

[Erwin]

Haven't played CMSF2 for a few weeks.  But, have played it a lot since CMSF2 came out and I cannot recall seeing this issue.  Something else must be going on.  Maybe this specific scenario was from CMSF1 and has some weird incompatibility issue with CMSF2 engine.  Or, maybe it's STEAM's fault.  Never touch the stuff personally.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Erwin

[chuckdyke]

UK Breaking the Bank borders on unplayable just because the units don't make common sense decisions. Going on the street without ordered to do so. Shooting from the balcony you must think about these silly things 100% of the time. It is no fun this scenario. 

[Erwin]

I well recall playing this scenario and it was a lot of fun in CMSF1.  Something may have happened if run in CMSF2.